Is it selfish to travel abroad at the moment?

[RockingMyFiftiesNot]

I expect the responses will be very mixed with responses from 'yes selfish' to 'no, go', and some in between - but I am torn so will consider all perspectives.

DH and I pondering seeking some winter sun in a country that's currently on the amber list. Mentioned to some friends who were horrified and said it was extremely selfish to travel abroad, and 'just because you can doesn't mean you should'.

We will fly, stay in hotels and use restaurants, outside seating where possible. We will hire a car, and go sightseeing / walking outside as much as possible.

We've looked into the risks (obviously concerned about our own safety as well as being potential carriers to/from holiday country.)

Risks areas I see are:

• airports - but taking precautions such as masks, distancing, hand washing/sanitising after touching things, don't see the risk as being any greater than a supermarket
• the flight - this is what is worrying me most but I understand the filtration systems to be effective, along with mask wearing, which should reduce the risk. Tho I am sure if you are sat near someone who is positive, you are quite vulnerable
• bars and restaurants - will be outside as much as possible which is lower risk than being inside in the uk
• everyone on the outbound flight will either be double jabbed or have taken a test before departure. Appreciate that isn't going to mean that everyone on the plane is negative but risk is reduced.
• everyone on the return flight will have been tested 3 days before the flight. Same comment as above.

We have said we will isolate at home fully until we've done the test after we return, and even if negative will avoid mixing for a further week or so and do our own tests regularly.

Appreciate we may need to isolate at our own cost on return if the country turns red while we are out there and cover other costs not included in insurance. If it looked like the country we decide on is heading in that direction before we leave, we'd cut our losses and not go.

I'm leaning towards 'we have to learn to live with it', but equally don't to be irresponsible / selfish.

Any points I haven't thought of to help weigh it up?

@Lua

Mutations occur everywhere, of course. Their occurence is a direct proportion of the virus population size and the time a virus stay within a host.

Keeping movement short, keep the spread of different strains contained, and allows the detection of a new dangerous variant with good containment time.

Why is the government letting trips occur? because they are worried about politics and economy. They are looking at their bottom line, in a very selfish way (as all politicians do by the way).

Why are they letting children in households with positive PCR tests go to school ? Certainly not because it is safe. They know the cases will spike and are still doing so...

The reason is political, but it is not economic. Keeping people in the UK is better than letting them go abroad spending money, the UK looses £29 billion net to tourism every year (eg. we spend more abroad than international visitors spend here). It is purely political, you only have to look on here and in the likes of the Mail and red-tops at the tantrums people are throwing about restrictions on holidays.

So many people see international travel as just being about ‘holidays’.
My mum lives in another country. Preventing international travel indefinitely keeps families apart.

This thread has inspired me to sort out my holidays for next year now!

'TweedePrik
Where I live half of new covid cases are related to people returning from abroad, picked up on the day 1 and 7 tests. So these people likely caught covid before or whilst away and have been spreading it merrily. However I guess everyone is doing that anyway whether they leave the country or not. And of course, returning travellers are more likely to be tested.'

Sorry but can I ask you to say more about this? Firstly the tests are days 2 and 8 with a test to release option on day 5. Most fully vaccinated people and children don't do anything beyond day 2 because it's not required.

What is the evidence for your statement about the link to foreign travel? Where have you read or heard that information? Links pls.

@SilverGlitterBaubles

I think Covid has made some people highly judgmental and self righteous. We are told to get on with living with Covid so ignore them, just as long as you take on board any risks of quarantine, last minute changes etc but otherwise enjoy 😎

'highly judgmental and self righteous' is an understatement !!!

I was unimpressed when the government launched the 'grass on your neighbours' website/phoneline and appalled when so many used it just to say things like Mabel from up the road has her daughter visiting AND she went out twice yesterday

In answer to your question OP, no IMO it is not selfish to go on holiday abroad or anywhere else for that matter.

Why is the government letting trips occur? because they are worried about politics and economy. They are looking at their bottom line, in a very selfish way (as all politicians do by the way).

The ability to leave your own country is a fundamental right in western democracies. It really shouldn't be suspended unless absolutely neccessary. That's why pretty much all European governments are now 'letting trips occur'.

Are you comfortable with the government taking away your fundamental rights indefinitely? I'm certainly not.

@ACreakingGateNeverStops

I think it depends on the neighbours. The neighbours two doors down from my brother were having late night parties through the first lockdown, with dozens of cars and 20-30 people there several nights a week and it went on for weeks. It took my brother and other neighbours reporting them multiple times for the police to actually do something, apart from anything else no one wants to have to listen to shitty drum and base at three in the morning.

OP you or no one else is being selfish for going in holiday abroad. I've been twice this year and booked a city break in Europe for October. Its been bliss.
You can catch covid or get run over by a bus popping to the local shop or doctors surgery.
We need to learn to live with it, and thats what I'm doing. If people want to stay locked up wearing a paper face mask then that's up to them, its called personal choice.
I for one choose to crack on and enjoy my life, if someone else sees that as selfish, then that their opinion in which they're entitled too, the fact I don't give a flying fuck about their opinion is also my free choice.
Go, soak up some sun.

This was the med last week, clean sea and beach, 32°c, not over crowded..... less chance catching covid here than the supermarket....

@Whammyyammy

OP you or no one else is being selfish for going in holiday abroad. I've been twice this year and booked a city break in Europe for October. Its been bliss. You can catch covid or get run over by a bus popping to the local shop or doctors surgery. We need to learn to live with it, and thats what I'm doing. If people want to stay locked up wearing a paper face mask then that's up to them, its called personal choice. I for one choose to crack on and enjoy my life, if someone else sees that as selfish, then that their opinion in which they're entitled too, the fact I don't give a flying fuck about their opinion is also my free choice. Go, soak up some sun.

You won't get run over by a bus popping to the doctor's surgery, they don't seem to actually see anyone in person.

Sadly in person is the only way I can collect my prescriptions from the drs

@IcedPurple _ I fully agree with you that free movement is a democratic right. One that should be treated with care. If less people would use this right without a strong reason at the moment, more people that need to go abroad would probably have an easier time.

The point is that the government is not saying it reccomends people to go into amber countries, quite the opposite. But if they don't "forbid" people think it is ok.... Hard compromise to strike.

if they don't "forbid" people think it is ok

They think it's ok because it IS ok.

It's sensible to take precautions to limit the spread of the disease, but that applies in my local shops just as much as it applies abroad. This disease is here to stay, and we can't suspend our lives indefinitely.

[quote Lua]@IcedPurple _ I fully agree with you that free movement is a democratic right. One that should be treated with care. If less people would use this right without a strong reason at the moment, more people that need to go abroad would probably have an easier time.

The point is that the government is not saying it reccomends people to go into amber countries, quite the opposite. But if they don't "forbid" people think it is ok.... Hard compromise to strike.[/quote]
What's a 'strong reason' though? And what's a 'need'?

And I don't follow your argument. If someone travels without having a subjectively defined 'strong reason', how does that impact on those who have an - again subjectively defined - 'need' to travel?

And there are lots of things which aren't illegal but clearly aren't good for us (not saying travel is one of those). Smoking, alcohol, sugar etc. We don't normally expect governments to treat us like children with no ability to use our own judgement, do we?

No. Covid could be with us long-term; if so, there will always be an argument not to travel overseas, visit the pub, commute to work, and so on. If we return to doing these things despite covid, then if not now, when?

@icedpurple -
yes, reason is fine. OP asked for people's opinion.

you seem to interpret that if someone's reason is not Ok, we are taking away people's democratic choice.... (see your post @ 12:47:19). You brought it up, not me.

[quote Lua]@icedpurple -
yes, reason is fine. OP asked for people's opinion.

you seem to interpret that if someone's reason is not Ok, we are taking away people's democratic choice.... (see your post @ 12:47:19). You brought it up, not me.[/quote]
No, I was just asking you what you meant by a 'strong reason' to travel, and who gets to decide.

Not selfish at all! We went abroad for three weeks this summer, we followed all the rules, tested where necessary, wore masks where necessary, SD as much as we reasonably could (which in a hot country is a darn sight easier than in the chilly UK), and guess what? None of us caught Covid. But guess who did? Three families we're friends with who stayed in the UK this summer.

What constitutes a reason? A holiday is a reason.
Our ‘reason’ was that my family live there and we hadn’t seen them for 20 months. Is that a good enough reason?

No one needs a reason and everyone frothing at the mouth about people travelling is a busybody. If you want to go abroad, go! You don't need a reason or anyone else's permission OP.

The self appointed police of what constitutes ‘important’.
Aunt Lydia would be proud.

My 'strong reason' to travel is that I need to feel the sun on my skin, read 6 kindle books on a sun lounger and eat tapas washed down with very cold wine 😎🍷😬

No of course it’s not selfish.

@chocolatesaltyballs22

My 'strong reason' to travel is that I need to feel the sun on my skin, read 6 kindle books on a sun lounger and eat tapas washed down with very cold wine 😎🍷😬

Well, that certainly gets my approval!

[quote MatildaIThink]@ACreakingGateNeverStops

I think it depends on the neighbours. The neighbours two doors down from my brother were having late night parties through the first lockdown, with dozens of cars and 20-30 people there several nights a week and it went on for weeks. It took my brother and other neighbours reporting them multiple times for the police to actually do something, apart from anything else no one wants to have to listen to shitty drum and base at three in the morning.[/quote]
Covid, or no covid that's just antisocial behaviour and should rightly be curtailed.