Is it selfish to travel abroad at the moment?

[RockingMyFiftiesNot]

I expect the responses will be very mixed with responses from 'yes selfish' to 'no, go', and some in between - but I am torn so will consider all perspectives.

DH and I pondering seeking some winter sun in a country that's currently on the amber list. Mentioned to some friends who were horrified and said it was extremely selfish to travel abroad, and 'just because you can doesn't mean you should'.

We will fly, stay in hotels and use restaurants, outside seating where possible. We will hire a car, and go sightseeing / walking outside as much as possible.

We've looked into the risks (obviously concerned about our own safety as well as being potential carriers to/from holiday country.)

Risks areas I see are:

• airports - but taking precautions such as masks, distancing, hand washing/sanitising after touching things, don't see the risk as being any greater than a supermarket
• the flight - this is what is worrying me most but I understand the filtration systems to be effective, along with mask wearing, which should reduce the risk. Tho I am sure if you are sat near someone who is positive, you are quite vulnerable
• bars and restaurants - will be outside as much as possible which is lower risk than being inside in the uk
• everyone on the outbound flight will either be double jabbed or have taken a test before departure. Appreciate that isn't going to mean that everyone on the plane is negative but risk is reduced.
• everyone on the return flight will have been tested 3 days before the flight. Same comment as above.

We have said we will isolate at home fully until we've done the test after we return, and even if negative will avoid mixing for a further week or so and do our own tests regularly.

Appreciate we may need to isolate at our own cost on return if the country turns red while we are out there and cover other costs not included in insurance. If it looked like the country we decide on is heading in that direction before we leave, we'd cut our losses and not go.

I'm leaning towards 'we have to learn to live with it', but equally don't to be irresponsible / selfish.

Any points I haven't thought of to help weigh it up?

"Geamhradh

@NannyAndJohn

Except two months ago, you were saying foreign travel (despite you having travelled extensively and always had two foreign holidays a year) wasn't worth the risk of catching Covid.

It's only been the last couple of weeks you've turned into Greta isn't it?

You big old winder-upper you.

The Covid crisis has opened my eyes to the horrors of climate change.

I'm sure I'm far from alone here."

I'm sure you'll get over it eventually!

People can fuck off with their overused "selfish" word. Since when was it acceptable for friends to dictate what you do?

If they're rude enough to try to dictate your life, be rude back and tell them to mind their own business.

@FfrothiCoffi

She's only a winder upper if we allow her to wind us up

She just amuses me. Best thing to do is to assume she’s a parody account. Makes it funny.

Quite. Our very own Eeyore.

@TweedePrik

Where I live half of new covid cases are related to people returning from abroad, picked up on the day 1 and 7 tests. So these people likely caught covid before or whilst away and have been spreading it merrily. However I guess everyone is doing that anyway whether they leave the country or not. And of course, returning travellers are more likely to be tested.

Where I live, just about everyone I know has been out of the country. In the UK we have day 2 and sometimes Day 8 tests so different to wherever you live. I don't know anyone who caught covid abroad. Know heaps of people who caught covid in the UK.

@Chloemol

Personally I am not booking holidays abroad. We are still in the middle of a pandemic with new variants of concern, and no way to know if a country which is ok now would be in a months time

Plus our own tourist/hospitality/ retail industry has suffered so much I want my money to support our economy

Do viruses only mutate outside of the UK?

Can you not afford a foreign holiday @NannyAndJohn ? Off you fuck to Butlins then - enjoy 😬

@Lua

The pandemic consequences is now all about whether we keep a head of variants or not.

The more virus circulating, the higher the chance of a new variant. The more people travelling, the higher the chance of a new variant spreading.

So yes, in absolute sense, a non-needed travel is selfish in the sense that benefits the traveller and have athe potential to affect the whole community negatively.

There are many reason why this rationale can be changed, by personal circumstances. But helping the travel industry, in my opinion, seems like a very-short term benefit compared with the potential longe term cost of continuous spread.

I get that and hence my conflict. But if that is key to the solution, and variants are mainly coming in from abroad, not from mutations in the UK, why are we allowed to travel abroad at all for vacation? I'm no fan of the government at all, but how could they have got this so wrong?

With all the changes, flight cancellations, isolation rules, tests and faff with test, plus additional paper work I’m not sure I could cope with the stress, plus if you caught Covid you need decent travel insurance, which appears only to pay for the Covid patient not the additional travelers.

One man is stuck in the uk because Australian flights are cancelled.

I wouldn’t go.

Not selfish at all. Live your life

Not selfish. Enjoy your winter sun. Everyone needs a break from time to time.

For anyone who thinks it’s selfish, you have to ask yourselves just when you think it will be “safe” to travel again. COVID is here for good. We cannot eliminate it. We still have the flu 100 years after her first pandemic. This virus will just be “one of those things” that we all just have to learn to live with.

I assume all the people on here concerned about climate change have none or one child. As someone who has chosen to have only one child, I won't be lectured about taking flights by parents of multiples.

I can't understand why it would be selfish - so no, I don't think you are being selfish to go on holiday. Have a break and enjoy!

My in laws caught COVID whilst In a holiday … In the uk … is it only selfish to travel abroad ? Shouldn’t we all stay at home and not meet anyone and stop driving and eating meat ? As that causes loads of problems as well.

For those of you that have opened the eyes because of the pandemic … you’re a little bit too late on this .. Greta had been campaigning for years !

Hi op. Currently writing from my holiday place.
I agree with others regarding the ffp2. I had a holiday at the beginning of august and someone tested positive on our flight back to the uk , my husband and I were wearing ffp2 and didn’t catch it. My son wasn’t wearing anything but don’t think he did neither because no symptom / we didn’t test positives after our contact with him (nor anyone in his nursery)

This weekend we flew again and we again wore ffp2s. I saw loads of clot masks and even some with valves despite they’re not allowed for flying. If you want to be safe I’d recommend them.

My only concern about winter is where ee will be at regarding COVID and restrictions? God knows … my fear would be to spend loads of money and losing it if you can’t travel or if tbe country you want to go to goes red. If you can afford it I’d wait last minute to be honest. Flights aren’t that expensive currently to book last minute in my experience (I’ve bought 3 flights with 1week-1montb in advance and they all were affordable )

I want to fly again in October time and my only worry is that there will be 2 traffic light renewals by that time so waiting a bit (at least til next week) for buying anything

Definitely not OP. The travel industry needs our support and those who are demonizing travel between two highly vaccinated countries are well, being unreasonable as covid will never disappear.

Maybe if you’re concerned about catching covid on the plane, visit a country where it’s required to have a PCR test before arrival as everyone would have been tested 72 hours prior to departure. Mask compliance on aircrafts is very high, I flew with BA yesterday to Athens and it was a full flight and everyone wore their mask properly. Upon arrival into Athens, we disembarked by rows to avoid overcrowding in the aisles. Everyone here is eating outdoors and mask compliance here is high.

We have been told we must live with the virus and start to live our lives in a safe way and it sounds like that’s exactly what you’re doing. Go abroad OP. You will grab some mega deals.

With all the changes, flight cancellations, isolation rules, tests and faff with test, plus additional paper work I’m not sure I could cope with the stress, plus if you caught Covid you need decent travel insurance, which appears only to pay for the Covid patient not the additional travelers.

I can cope with the faff of tests etc but if the country turned red while we were away and we had to pay silly money to isolate on return in a hotel not far from where we live, that would be a real bummer. Or if someone off the flight was randomly tested on arrival in the destination country and found positive so we had to isolate there. And yes if one of us caught COVID the costs of the other staying on/changing flights wouldn't be covered. So, if any of those things happened i dare say we'd wish we hadn't gone. But it's a risk we're prepared to take . I don't think things are going to change for a very long time, and we're both at an age and stage in life where time is ticking away.

My biggest concern re 'being selfish' is the possibility of bringing back some variant but then if you take all the sensible precautions, that risk is very low and statistically speaking you'd have to be really unlucky to be sat with someone positive on the plane. But accept it could happen.

Not selfish but I still wouldn't, the tests etc are all fine and good but what happens if you get a positive abroad, can you afford to stay an extra 2 weeks isolating?

The people who claim it's selfish never seem to have a good explanation of why going abroad and engaging in tourist activities there is worse/more dangerous than doing so in the UK.

All summer, people have been travelling around the UK, eating out, doing tourist activities and going to large events. Doing so in e.g. France is no different really. Planes are a possible source of infection spread, but so are trains, pubs, world cup matches, festivals etc.

@EasterIssland re not knowing what winter will bring - yes totally agree, we were discussing that just last night and have decided to have a trip abroad sooner rather than later. This thread has made me feel better even if the 'selfish' accusation will stick with me. And then we'll take a look again when things get cold and miserable here and maybe see if we can get a really good deal somewhere warm at that time. Even more selfish I know.

As that means we'll be planning in much more of a hurry than planned, can I be cheeky and ask you (and other PPs who mentioned mask grades) where you got your masks/brand or if not, how much you paid as I've heard people say they vary widely and you can be ripped off. (I absolutely don't mind paying for safety, not at all, but don't want to be ripped off and it'll be one less thing to research now we've brought the the trip forward).

Thank you.

I'm in London. The only people I've known this summer who have had covid caught it on holiday on Cornwall and on holiday in North West England.

Crack on with living, Covid is here to stay now

You can get ffp2 from screw fix but I found them quite bad (they pressed my nose and caused my congestion). I bought some whilst I was on my first holiday.
And I agree aboir go sooner than later. Last year I had a holiday planned for Japan for November and in august it got cancelled. I found myself with 25 days still to be used and didn’t know what to do with them. That’s why I’m planning to go again in October as we might not be allowed later in the year

For tests I’m using c19 for the antigen back to the uk (29) and nwp (40) for the pcr
Good luck and hope you have fun

Not selfish but it does seem nuts just for a bit of sun. High risk of increased costs and what if you test positive while there and get stuck there?

Nice hotel in UK?

I don't think it's selfish but is it wise to do? Only you can answer that.

I think Covid has made some people highly judgmental and self righteous. We are told to get on with living with Covid so ignore them, just as long as you take on board any risks of quarantine, last minute changes etc but otherwise enjoy 😎