No vaccines for healthy 12-15 Yr olds

[Wellbythebloodyhell]

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vaccines-will-not-be-recommended-for-healthy-children-aged-12-to-15-government-advisers-say-12398444

Is anyone else glad this potential decision has been taken away? I was very much undecided about vaccinating my older dc and now feel a bit of a weight has been lifted now its not something I need to consider.

Not quite sure what you are asking me , marsha , sorry, but I would always choose vaccine for mine. I guess the more people that do the better.

I wondered if you were more thinking about your dc having the option or how important it is that others vaccinate too.

I hope there’s no pressure either way for 12 - 15 especially since JCVI have shown that the margins are small.

I do get that if people are very keen they’d prefer the option though. I was glad that 16 yr old could for example, 11 yr old will see at time.

Essentially the jvci did not recommend a mass roll out of the vaccine to healthy 12-15 year olds on health grounds. The margin of benefits over risks was too small for them to recommend a mass roll out.

@soredust

You genuinely think that vaccines are increasing infection and transmission @soredust?

No idea, but it doesn't really sell the vaccines as working very well does it if you can still get covid and still transmit it.

This isn't unsurprising or a sign the vaccines aren't working as expected. They're non-sterilising and would be expected to work similarly to how those do for 'flu.

They're actually doing very well considering the sheer volume of transmission we see with coronavirus, and the rate of mutation. It's very very good we haven't had a immune escape variant yet.

A group of vaccinated people on average are infected and transmit significantly less than a group of unvaccinated, this has been critical in terms of reducing severe illness, death and getting control over outbreaks.

@Sadless

The jvci have recommended that age group don't need to be vaccinated and we are supposed to trust them. So now the government is making the choice. Think I will stick with the jvci recommendations.

Sal

It's not 'the government' though , is it? It's the CMOs, with advice from other scientists and stakeholders.

@stepupandbecounted

Genuine question:

Given we only have a few months of data, why on earth ARE you so relaxed about vaccinating your children with an untested vaccine?

(Assuming your children are healthy)

To put it back to you - why are so relaxed about exposing children to a novel virus?

The vaccine is fully tested and approved in this age group - the fact that you're still repeated the "untested" line does suggest you may have somewhat of an agenda.

Given what we know of viruses and vaccines, there is far greater risk of long term effects from a virus than there are from vaccines. The JCVI have been very open about their concerns about vaccinating children - and fear of unknown long term side effects is not one of them.

One more for @stepupandbecounted
mRNA/RNA vaccines - not new, not untested. First developed in the 1970s, also used to treat polyneuropathy.

One therapy, made by Germany-based CureVac, is the first vaccine to reach human trials that was developed using mRNA to fight an infectious disease. It targets the rabies virus and was injected into human volunteers starting in 2013. Decades earlier, in 1971, researchers developed the first syringefuls that they thought were safe for humans, which they initially tested by injecting themselves. The first version of the mRNA-based rabies vaccine prompted only a weak immune system response but did show that the technology was safe.

www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-coronavirus-vaccine-development-speed

Also from the same article
Driven by a global urgency and underpinned by decades of prior work on vaccine technology, vaccine developers found a way to chop not just days or months, but years off the timeline. What was jettisoned was not the science, or the safety tests, but rather the wait time baked into the development process.

^you can still get and transmit flu after having a flu vaccine

flu vaccines tend to be less protective than covid ones

we still use flu vaccines (and give them in schools)^

Yep. And loads of people don’t get them and no one really gives a crap. Not an anti-vaxx accusation in sight.

Long covid - the stats tell us that the children recovering from long covid usually do so in 3-6 months in full.

That's a pretty big chunk of school to miss during the GCSE years. A 2 in a million chance of myocarditis versus a 1 in 7 chance of long covid makes vaccination of my 15 yo a sensible choice to me and she is equally keen.

Surely if the vaccine didn't reduce the chance of children becoming infected the JCVI would have concluded that the risks of vaccination completely outweighed the benefits rather than the benefits 'marginally' outweighing the risks? I'd love to read a detailed explanation of the JCVI's reasoning because if they honestly just compared myocarditis rates with ICU admission rates that would be ridiculous.

I don't understand why people who have no intention of letting their kids have the jab care either way about the JCVI's recommendation, it wasn't going to affect them anyway unlike those of us who do want our kids to have it.

Yep. And loads of people don’t get them and no one really gives a crap. Not an anti-vaxx accusation in sight.

Where are the threads full of mistruths about the flu vaccine though? If you knowingly spread misinformation about vaccines like certain posters here what does that say about you? You can't expect to repeatedly lie and not be called out on it.

I don't understand why people who have no intention of letting their kids have the jab care either way about the JCVI's recommendation, it wasn't going to affect them anyway unlike those of us who do want our kids to have it.

I'll tell you exactly why I care about the recommendation, I had concerns that dc who weren't vaccinated would subliminally be segregated from those who are, ie vaccinated students wouldn't need to isolate, un vax would. Or following some of our EU counterparts where they would be excluded from certain venues, I know those haven't been discussed at all but it's not to far out of the realms of possibility to happen.
Not to mention the vitriol that has been spouted between vax and unvax adults that has been toxic at times, I'd hate for that to filter down to our children. I'd bet my last pound that it will happen too, it's all well and good saying its not mandatory and each family can decide but past experience on MN anyway tells us that will soon change when their dc want to mix with unvax friends etc. Its also mandatory for adults but nearly everyone is branded selfish for not having it again on MN anyway

IF as a family we decide to vaccinate our dc, I want it to be because its the right reasons for them personally not to placate wider society.

But it’s not just people spreading misinformation that are being called ‘anti-vaxx’ - it’s anyone who has decided against having this vaccine.

I'd love to read a detailed explanation of the JCVI's reasoning because if they honestly just compared myocarditis rates with ICU admission rates that would be ridiculous.

This is my issue too. It feels like it only matters if a child ends up in ICU (burden on NHS I assume ,although that is also not JCVI's remit). They seem to only be worthy of protection of their outcome is extreme. I hope I am misunderstanding that, I truly do. The risk of hospital admission is actually higher than the risk of myocarditis, albeit still low (87 per million iirc)

@Wellbythebloodyhell

I don't understand why people who have no intention of letting their kids have the jab care either way about the JCVI's recommendation, it wasn't going to affect them anyway unlike those of us who do want our kids to have it.

I'll tell you exactly why I care about the recommendation, I had concerns that dc who weren't vaccinated would subliminally be segregated from those who are, ie vaccinated students wouldn't need to isolate, un vax would. Or following some of our EU counterparts where they would be excluded from certain venues, I know those haven't been discussed at all but it's not to far out of the realms of possibility to happen.
Not to mention the vitriol that has been spouted between vax and unvax adults that has been toxic at times, I'd hate for that to filter down to our children. I'd bet my last pound that it will happen too, it's all well and good saying its not mandatory and each family can decide but past experience on MN anyway tells us that will soon change when their dc want to mix with unvax friends etc. Its also mandatory for adults but nearly everyone is branded selfish for not having it again on MN anyway

IF as a family we decide to vaccinate our dc, I want it to be because its the right reasons for them personally not to placate wider society.

Same here to last part re placating others. I’d also prefer it if it were a private decision which it probably won’t be if done in school and people know who gets it.

schools have so many jabs. It literally never comes up in conversation. The kids could not care less. same when some don't go for their LFTs.

Actually the students probably won’t care.

I don’t want my DD13 to have it and my DS16 hasn’t had it either. I am double jabbed. I am worried about long term side effects for them so would rather wait a bit. For the posters saying why would you care if it was offered to 12-15 year olds if you aren’t going to vaccinate your DCs anyway? it’s the fact that it will probably go the same way as adults with restrictions being imposed on people who haven’t been double jabbed and them feeling pressured to have it and that’s just not right. It’s forcing people to take a vaccine they don’t want and don’t feel comfortable taking just yet and DCs who aren’t vaccinated will probably be treated differently. They are already looking at bringing in vaccine passports for adults and if they do that for children I just don’t think it’s fair, where will it end? If it was truly down to personal choice / circumstances I would be happy for them to offer them to the children who want it but I can’t help feeling it will make it a two tier society.

I don't think they will impose restrictions upon children : cf them not needing to self isolate at the moment if a contact, even completely unjabbed.

However, it could become an issue for foreign travel.

It was the right decision.

MN bears no resemblance to RL. Kids in my DD's class didn't have the HPV vaccine and no one gave a toss, teenagers have more important things to bitch about. It's more likely to be adults who have an issue with it, but even then most won't give a toss provided their own kids are vaccinated.

IF as a family we decide to vaccinate our dc, I want it to be because its the right reasons for them personally not to placate wider society.

Which is as it should be.

In my life vaccination is just not a subject that comes up in conversation. I have one relative who has chosen not to have the vaccine because she had covid and worries about the combined effect of both. I worry slightly for her but it's her decision, none of my business really.

It’s not a decision yet

The kids could not care less.

It's not the kids I was thinking of its the adults

In real life - for all that matters- all my friends have been vaccinated, of my Italian friends their kids 12+ have all been vaccinated (with the exception of one who’s under cortisone treatment and the GP told him to wait), there is general consensus that it’s a necessary step to take to compensate for a sizeable chunk of 50something which are currently in Italy the age group most reluctant to vaccinate (but progressively reluctant to pay 15€ twice a week to get the green pass needed to do everything, including getting on a bus. So a few of them are actually now capitulating)

MN bears no resemblance to RL. Kids in my DD's class didn't have the HPV vaccine and no one gave a toss, teenagers have more important things to bitch about. It's more likely to be adults who have an issue with it, but even then most won't give a toss provided their own kids are vaccinated.

This is my experience. I had 2 kids over this afternoon with mine, I don't know if they are vaccinated or not. I didn't ask, it is none of my business, nor did those parents ask my if mine were. Nobody has asked me if my 14 year old is vaccinated. As far as I know Ireland is phasing out covid passports to enter into restaurants etc not doubling down and insisting kids have them. There is no evidence here to suggest that allowing vaccination of 12-15yo is creating any kind of 2 tier society for them.

Literally, the only people I know making anything out of it is one of my friends who is on facebook all of the time talking about how we are sterilising our children by getting them vaccinated and shame on us. Nobody cares about your kids as much as you think they do.

I don’t think parents will care, usually. I wouldn’t ask for other people’s dc, although I generally know for adult friends as we chat about having had vaccine.

But I’d still prefer decision to be private in the school. Maybe mn doesn’t reflect rl though, hopefully not.

The cricket match was great thanks for asking, family cricket you understand, we don't play for the county!!!

No one has really answered the question, give covid is not an emergency for our children at least, why are we working outside the normal regulations for ALL vaccines and new medicines? And not allowing for the large trials to take place over a period of years, which is normal procedure and to gather the data and information in the short, medium and long term so we can be absolutely sure that mRNA is safe for children? Why is that not happening?

It was understandable given the risk to some adults to go ahead with vaccine deployment, but I feel they are doubling down now on the risk by also going ahead with children!

here is general consensus that it’s a necessary step to take to compensate for a sizeable chunk of 50something which are currently in Italy the age group most reluctant to vaccinate

And how is it ever okay to make children have the vaccine, and yet those most at risk (the over 50s) get to decide the risk is too much or simply not bother in Italy and the kids take the hit instead?! This is utter, utter madness and totally unfair, given the risk to vaccinating children is not zero! You can't say just because one older group opts out, kids will make up the shortfall.

We can not start using our children like this, it is deeply deeply unethical. When we consider that the stats are this: The chances of dying from covid if you are under the age of 19 is:

99.973%

Now tell me kids need a vaccine Of course they do not.