No vaccines for healthy 12-15 Yr olds

[Wellbythebloodyhell]

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vaccines-will-not-be-recommended-for-healthy-children-aged-12-to-15-government-advisers-say-12398444

Is anyone else glad this potential decision has been taken away? I was very much undecided about vaccinating my older dc and now feel a bit of a weight has been lifted now its not something I need to consider.

@JS87

We also don’t know how much the vaccines protect against long covid.

Really?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58410354

Besides which , protect against covid = protect against long covid.

I’ve looked at the recent study and the comments below it and it hasn’t been peer reviewed yet and there are concerns about the numbers. From a quick read I think it’s probably overestimating them as the cohort were those who had interacted with a Us healthcare system so probably doesn’t include a lot of asymptomatic cases.

Just as the 'only' 1 in 7 children get long covid has not been peer reviewed yet, as it goes. Most of the research used/reported hasn't.

I am going out, and enjoying the sunshine, but I what I will say in reply:

IF the vaccine lasted and did not wane, I would feel more encouraged.

IF there were long term data on the mRNA vaccine I would feel more confident it is actually safe (this is likely to be published in 6 months time)

IF my children were at severe risk from covid I would obviously feel differently, but they are not at risk at al, the stats tell me that.

IF the vaccine stopped my children actually catching covid that might help, but it does not. It only minimises symptoms.

IF my children wanted the vaccine of their own violation and they were not pressurised, I would respect their decision, especially my eldest child.

IF the vaccine did not cause other conditions, such as heart conditions it would be an easier decision to make.

IF I had more faith in gov ministers than the JCVI then I may come to a different conclusion, but I don't trust the government reasons for vaccinating children at this point (economy basically)

As it stands now we won't be taking up the offer of vaccines, but we will continue to monitor the virus, and the published vaccine data when it arrives and wait until next year. This to me feels like the safest choice as a pro vaccine parent.

No sunshine here. I guess the sun really does always shine on the righteous!

One last question for noble and others, WHY are you so invested in vaccinating children?

What does it matter to you?

The reasoning was very clear, IMO, and I agree with them.

Risk of heart infection complications with jab for boys b/n 12-15yo is 60 per million

Risk for heart infection complications with jab for girls b/n 12-15yo is 8 per million

Risk of boys/girls b/n 12-15yo having severe covid requiring ICU care is 2 per million

This means that for a healthy child, it is riskier to the individual child to have the jab than it is to catch covid, as the chance of severe side effects are higher with the jab, not covid itself.

They have recommended the jab for CEV children aged b/n 12 & 15.

I feel a bit sorry for the government actually, which i never thought I'd say, lol, but they can't do right for doing wrong.

It seems whichever decision they make will be the wrong one.

If they go ahead and vaccinate 12-15yo and there are cases of severe heart infections and deaths in these children people will be up in arms that they put the economy, etc, above children's health.

If they don't, they're risking disrupting their education and not putting the children 1st, so it seems they can't win either way.

@MrsSkylerWhite

Preech

Today Programme confidently reporting that the Govt. is going to overrule the JCVI and that Chris Whitty is in favour of approval. Says a Govt. minister (not named) has said the roll out will start within days.

The teen will be pleased to hear that.

I appreciate none of us want to do potential harm to our children. I see the virus as a much larger threat than the vaccine, particularly since it has mutated so quickly, and so many times.

The UK health system also have a really strict idea of what makes you vulnerable vs "perfectly healthy". I have been on various asthma treatment plans since I was an infant. I've been in the hospital for it as a child (longest stint was a full week at age 4-5), on rounds of steroid tablets as a child and young adult, I take a corticosteroid preventer inhaler everyday, still have to refill Ventolin inhalers at 38, and get an asthma review every year at the GP's office to tweak my plan and make sure I'm not draining inhalers. But none of that made me "clinically vulnerable" to a health system with limited resources. I couldn't prove I've ever been hospitalised with asthma before, because it happened in my former country, and I have no idea how I'd even begin to find those medical records (especially not during a pandemic when all the medics back home were flat out too).

My DC who spent two nights in hospital with a viral wheeze is also not considered vulnerable. By grace, she hasn't needed her inhaler in months, and before that cold last winter, it was over a year between puffs. But she did drain an entire Ventolin inhaler when she had the chicken pox, because her wheezing was that bad for that many days. "Perfectly healthy".

That DC of mine is too little to vaccinate against Covid-19, but I'd like the option of vaccinating the teen. In my experience, vaccinating for viruses like flu have kept us all more well in the house, even during the years when we've all caught the flu anyway: it's passed quicker when we've had vaccines, the symptoms have been milder, and nothing was so bad that it warranted a trip to the hospital.

Risk of heart infection complications with jab for boys b/n 12-15yo is 60 per million

Risk for heart infection complications with jab for girls b/n 12-15yo is 8 per million

Risk of boys/girls b/n 12-15yo having severe covid requiring ICU care is 2 per million

This is a misrepresentation that’s already been brought up on this thread.

It’s actually

60 per million incidences of mild myocarditis post vaccine

Vs

2 per million severe incidences requiring ICU

If they compared equally mild outcome of covid, or the not so mild outcomes of long covid, then the risk assessment would look very different.

My last observation is this:

The members of the JCVI have invested a life time of work and academia into science and vaccines, they are the biggest cheerleaders of scientific solutions. If, of all people, can not recommend the vaccines to our children then should sit up and listen. They are in the best possible position to make that decision for us, they have all the facts (we certainly do not) they have the stats, they have the global data at their finger tips. They may know things that we are simply not privy to, in a word they are far more trusted by the public than anyone else.

So when it comes to vaccines and safety I am listening to them.

Not you Noble Not Boris or Gavin. I am listening to the JCVI loud and clear, and I hear what they are saying.

They are saying it is too soon to know if the vaccines are safe.

And thank god we have a board willing to speak the truth, and are principled.
Our children are safer because of them. Whether you believe the vaccines are right for dc or not, the fact we have an independent panel of world class scientists looking very carefully at all of this, is very comforting to me as a parent.

@stepupandbecounted

One last question for noble and others, WHY are you so invested in vaccinating children?

What does it matter to you?

I’m not. I’m quite interested in the politics here, and why JCVI have done such a bizarrely crap job.

Also interested in correcting disinformation, and at the moment there seems to be quite a lot of it from people really invested in not vaccinating kids.

noble Well it might be fun for you to look at the 'politics' but I have real live children invested in this situation, and trust me if you had perfectly healthy, bright and happy kids that have their whole future ahead of them you may not feel it is quite so entertaining make such a huge gamble on their health like this.

It is very far from vaguely interesting to me. It is a dreadful position to be in as a parent.
I will worry if they are vaccinated, and it turns out to be something harmful or very harmful inside of them.
I will also worry if they catch covid for the second time and are more ill.

As a parent, and many like me this not just a bit of banter on line! This is a really hard decision to make. One that keeps me awake at night. I love my children, I am responsible for their well being and I have to make the right call on this.

Well it might be fun for you to look at the 'politics' but I have real live children invested in this situation

So do I.

* quite so entertaining taking* such a huge gamble on their health like this

noble sure you do.

@stepupandbecounted

noble sure you do.

Are you really questioning whether a poster has children?

Are you suggesting I’m lying, step?

How utterly, utterly bizarre.

I wouldn't dream of saying you are lying noble I am sure you have children aged 12-15 that you are making vital vaccine decisions for right now :)

@stepupandbecounted - well, that sounds all very noble, but they are every bit as fallible as the experts in other countries who have recommended vaccinating 12-15 year olds. After all, they are more relaxed about blood clots in otherwise healthy 40-somethings than countries which are more relaxed about myocarditis in teenagers - so, same world data, different expert opinions. I have listened to their conclusions and, if my children were 12 years old, would be in no rush to push them to the front of the queue. I also respect other people making different decisions for their children. I still think it is plain wrong to refuse to vaccinate a 15 year old student in their GCSE year when they want to have it, though, especially when that 15-year old has relatives living in other countries where not being vaccinated at their age is problematic and said teenager also wants to visit them. Fgs, I really don’t think the vaccine is so incredibly dangerous my child should actually be prevented from having it, as is currently the case.

@stepupandbecounted

if you had perfectly healthy, bright and happy kids that have their whole future ahead of them

Like ds before he caught covid, you mean? I would imagine that if you’d seen a novel virus with an unknown impact on future health affect your child (who’s had 5 or 6 blood tests due to covid, by the way, on top of other medical interventions) for over a year, you’d quickly change your mind. If you’d seen your very fit and healthy child suddenly struggling to breathe, struggling to walk, struggling to eat, losing the ability to play football with his friends, missing school, being in pain for months all due to covid I’m sure you’d be a lot more understanding about why some people are “invested” in vaccinating children.

It’s quite worrying actually that despite me describing his symptoms a few times now you’ve not conceded that it’s a potential concern. Are you looking at all the information, or just cherry picking what you want to hear?

@stepupandbecounted

I wouldn't dream of saying you are lying noble I am sure you have children aged 12-15 that you are making vital vaccine decisions for right now :)

But if you live in the UK you aren't making vital vaccine decisions for your 12-15 year olds are you because your government isn't giving you a choice to make those decisions.

Great for that clarification, step, because ‘sure you do’ sounded like you doubted it.

@Piggywaspushed

It's definitely not 4 weeks. Will find it..

From NICE

“ In addition to the clinical case definitions, the term 'long COVID' is commonly used to describe signs and symptoms that continue or develop after acute COVID‑19. It includes both ongoing symptomatic COVID‑19 (from 4 to 12 weeks) and post‑COVID‑19 syndrome (12 weeks or more).”

This particular study looked at symptoms after 12 weeks. I linked to it a few pages back:

www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-798316/v1

@Piggywaspushed

I posted it twice upthread, bumbley. For 12-17 year old boys, myocarditis is seen as a complication of covid for 450 in 1 million cases. For the vaccine , 60.

Can you link to it again please so I don’t have to go back through the pages to find it?