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No vaccines for healthy 12-15 Yr olds

999 replies

Wellbythebloodyhell · 03/09/2021 16:06

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vaccines-will-not-be-recommended-for-healthy-children-aged-12-to-15-government-advisers-say-12398444

Is anyone else glad this potential decision has been taken away? I was very much undecided about vaccinating my older dc and now feel a bit of a weight has been lifted now its not something I need to consider.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Lostinacloud · 03/09/2021 22:45

You guess correct @FfrothiCoffi. Vaccination rates are only rising because they are basically forcing all over 12’s and all adults to be vaccinated or else they can’t go almost anywhere anymore. It’s disgraceful discrimination and erosion of freedom of choice - especially in light of emerging evidence that vaccinated people will still catch and pass covid on, thereby disassembling the social greater good argument. They have almost zero exemptions allowed, even making pregnant women under 12 weeks pregnant get vaccinated.
Someone might come on to say that you can also access these places with a negative test result but they last only 72hrs and from the middle of next month will cost €25 per test.

MarshaBradyo · 03/09/2021 22:47

@mrshoho

What decisions would they be MarshaBradyo?
Dose timing and AZ for over 65 when data was low. Did you disagree with those?
walksen · 03/09/2021 22:47

". They have almost zero exemptions allowed, even making pregnant women under 12 weeks pregnant get vaccinated"

You know patients on ICU wards in the uk are disproportionately pregnant women with delta variant right?

FfrothiCoffi · 03/09/2021 22:48

@walksen

The result of which is

" their vaccination rate leaves ours in the dust despite their slow start?"

So it worked didn't it? Their vaccine rollout has surpassed ours reducing demand on health services, educational disruption etc.

So the ends always justify the means, regardless of what those means are? Shall we use this theory in all walks of life? Banning sugar, alcohol, cigarettes, fast food, cars, extreme sports (well any sports) etc would also reduce pressure on the NHS.
Watapalava · 03/09/2021 22:48

Are people serious?

How can you still argue with evidence when JCVI have way more evidence than you? To auestion JCVI is ridiculous - do you suddenly have scientific data they don't? - i cannot believe people are on here even posting that! Like what are you more qualified?

MarshaBradyo · 03/09/2021 22:48

@walksen

The result of which is

" their vaccination rate leaves ours in the dust despite their slow start?"

So it worked didn't it? Their vaccine rollout has surpassed ours reducing demand on health services, educational disruption etc.

Has it? Statistica shows U.K. above France - which data are you looking at?
bumbleymummy · 03/09/2021 22:50

From the ‘1 in 7 children develop long COVID study’ (preprint)

“ Adolescents may have a higher risk than younger children but it is unclear whether the features associated with Long COVID are related to the viral infection or the effects of the pandemic, lockdown and school closures with consequent social isolation.”

“As in any self-selected online study, we need to acknowledge our response rate of 13.5%. It is possible that there is a response bias for example, towards those continuing to experience symptoms at 3 months being more motivated to participate, resulting in an over-representation of symptom prevalence.”

www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-798316/v1

MarshaBradyo · 03/09/2021 22:50

@Watapalava

Are people serious?

How can you still argue with evidence when JCVI have way more evidence than you? To auestion JCVI is ridiculous - do you suddenly have scientific data they don't? - i cannot believe people are on here even posting that! Like what are you more qualified?

It is strange.

I would have been fine either way and possibly it will still go the other way

But suddenly scientists don’t know. After everyone crying out to listen to scientists.

walksen · 03/09/2021 22:56

Banning sugar, alcohol, cigarettes, fast food, cars, extreme sports (well any sports) etc would also reduce pressure on the NHS

These principles are already applied.

Sugar in soft drinks etc is taxed for this reason
Alcohol is taxed too. Cigarettes banned on TV and smoking in public places. Safety rules for many Sports are regularly updated and some like base jumping illegal.

You so t have to be vaccinated in France but it will cost you more in money and time if you are not. Seems fair enough as there's plenty of anti vaxxers opposed to the vaccine but happy enough to use the NHS when they catch covid.

We are relying on a vaccine wall to prevent serious illness. Build it as strong as you can.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 03/09/2021 22:59

Follow the science

Unless you disagree with the science

noblegiraffe · 03/09/2021 23:00

vaccines which have literally been approved by the MHRA months ago for this group

If they’re only retreading MHRA ground in considering only medical issues, then what is the point of them? I’ve seen other analyses from them where they take into consideration other issues e.g. cost effectiveness.

BewareTheLibrarians · 03/09/2021 23:01

[quote bumbleymummy]From the ‘1 in 7 children develop long COVID study’ (preprint)

“ Adolescents may have a higher risk than younger children but it is unclear whether the features associated with Long COVID are related to the viral infection or the effects of the pandemic, lockdown and school closures with consequent social isolation.”

“As in any self-selected online study, we need to acknowledge our response rate of 13.5%. It is possible that there is a response bias for example, towards those continuing to experience symptoms at 3 months being more motivated to participate, resulting in an over-representation of symptom prevalence.”

www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-798316/v1[/quote]
As a parent of a child who’s has long covid, this makes NO SENSE. At all.

How on earth could lockdown have caused his heart inflammation? Multiple inflammatory reactions? Visible organ damage in scans? Ds’s consultant is very clear that ds’s covid infection and mis-c* caused the problems that he had for a year after the initial infection.

Possibly some fatigue or anxiety could be caused by lockdown. But the physical effects? Impossible. It’s so frustrating to see this absolute bollocks posted and swallowed up by people who can’t understand how bad long covid can be.

And breathe Grin

Mis-c = “The syndrome is an inflammatory reaction in the body about four weeks after infection with the SARS-CoV-2 virus. The initial symptoms often include fever, rashes, red eyes, diarrhea and vomiting, and may get worse over a few days. The inflammation can affect the heart, blood vessels and other organs, which can make some children very ill and in need of urgent care.”

mrshoho · 03/09/2021 23:02

@AlecTrevelyan006

Follow the science

Unless you disagree with the science

Boris Johnson is about to do this so a perfect example.
bumbleymummy · 03/09/2021 23:07

@walksen

". They have almost zero exemptions allowed, even making pregnant women under 12 weeks pregnant get vaccinated"

You know patients on ICU wards in the uk are disproportionately pregnant women with delta variant right?

Do you have a source for the number of pregnant women in icu wards?
mrshoho · 03/09/2021 23:10

Vaccines for 12 plus will be offered. We'll be late to the party of course but the government can now blame the JCVI for the delay and confusion.

FfrothiCoffi · 03/09/2021 23:10

@walksen

Banning sugar, alcohol, cigarettes, fast food, cars, extreme sports (well any sports) etc would also reduce pressure on the NHS

These principles are already applied.

Sugar in soft drinks etc is taxed for this reason
Alcohol is taxed too. Cigarettes banned on TV and smoking in public places. Safety rules for many Sports are regularly updated and some like base jumping illegal.

You so t have to be vaccinated in France but it will cost you more in money and time if you are not. Seems fair enough as there's plenty of anti vaxxers opposed to the vaccine but happy enough to use the NHS when they catch covid.

We are relying on a vaccine wall to prevent serious illness. Build it as strong as you can.

Isn’t it funny how people can entirely twist things to suit their agenda. I said banning those things would reduce pressure on the NHS. Not taxing them, or banning advertising of them. Surely the ends would justify the means?
Sweetpeasaremadeforbees · 03/09/2021 23:12

How can you still argue with evidence when JCVI have way more evidence than you? To auestion JCVI is ridiculous - do you suddenly have scientific data they don't? - i cannot believe people are on here even posting that! Like what are you more qualified?

I don't question the data or the science. I'm sure the JCVI came to a perfectly logical conclusion based on the data. But as they state, their remit was very narrow and they were not expected to consider issues such as the disruption of education or the consequent damage to the mental health of students.

But I don't know why they didn't appear to consider the effects of long covid.

bumbleymummy · 03/09/2021 23:14

@BewareTheLibrarians

Also from the paper -

“… there is no universally agreed definition of Long COVID“

So that’s probably part of the problem. I don’t think they’re suggesting that all the symptoms could be attributed to lockdown etc (they mention that there have been 200 different symptoms associated with long covid) but they’re probably referring to those among the most common - fatigue, insomnia, headaches.

BewareTheLibrarians · 03/09/2021 23:19

Quoting myself here because I am never clear when I’m angry Grin
While saying “It’s so frustrating to see this absolute bollocks posted and swallowed up by people who can’t understand how bad long covid can be.” I do completely understand why they have to say this (they have to report on absolute certainty, and on some cases this is not possible.)

But there is a huge problem with the mainstream media picking up parts like bumbleymummy’s post, and people who haven’t experienced long covid in their own children then think”oh it’s just a bit of lockdown boredom, or fatigue because they got lazy over lockdown.” Or “parents worrying about nothing”.

There’s next to no reporting about the children who do get Mis-c (which was pretty horrible) or who are left with asthma, or severe fatigue (as in, can’t get out of bed for more than an hour), or organ damage. Unfortunately that doesn’t match the government’s “covid doesn’t affect children” narrative, so it’s rarely reported on.

Leaving those of us who have experienced this being disbelieved or thought to be over reacting, and meaning vaccination might be thought of as “more risky”. People are left making a decision without necessarily having all the facts.

BewareTheLibrarians · 03/09/2021 23:23

That makes sense @bumbleymummy re the loose definition. Unfortunately they never seem to make it clear that there can be worse symptoms, so people who haven’t experienced it who who don’t read around more widely just think it’s “a bit of fatigue”. It’s frustrating.

(No anger towards you by the way Smile just at the lack of clarity/openness in sound bites like that being released with no other context.)

walksen · 03/09/2021 23:24

Re pregnant women in hospital and icu.@ICNARC
report of intensive care admissions and outcomes in England, Wales & N. Ireland.

Plenty of doctors on twitter commenting on unvaccinated in ICU at including unvaccinated pregnant women.

Royal college of midwives recommends getting vaccinated.

HSHorror · 03/09/2021 23:28

Beware - exactly this
Plus for some lc they think the vax may help.
Is your dc under 16?

It could well be cost. Pfizer is expensive - much more than AZ.
And if they need it yearly or 6m.
Tbh i think i prefer frances way. It may seem extreme but at least it is protecting the vulnerable. Including children.
Compare to here where kids dont even have to wear masks but are unvaxxed.
looks like adults will still get lc when vaxxed that will affect kids

bumbleymummy · 03/09/2021 23:31

@BewareTheLibrarians

That makes sense *@bumbleymummy* re the loose definition. Unfortunately they never seem to make it clear that there can be worse symptoms, so people who haven’t experienced it who who don’t read around more widely just think it’s “a bit of fatigue”. It’s frustrating.

(No anger towards you by the way Smile just at the lack of clarity/openness in sound bites like that being released with no other context.)

Yes, I’m sure it’s very frustrating. I really do think they need to establish a firm definition of ‘long COVID’ which distinguishes between children who have some mild, lingering symptoms for a few weeks/months that completely resolve (in line with what can be seen with other viruses) and those that have longer term, potentially life changing consequences. I don’t think lumping everything in together is doing them any favours because, as you say, it makes people dismissive of ‘proper’ long covid cases when there are so many calling milder symptoms long COVID too.
BewareTheLibrarians · 03/09/2021 23:31

Hmm. Stats on the bbc right now.

60 per million cases of myocarditis after two Pfizer vaccines, majority mild and resolved with no problems.

2 in a million children in intensive care with covid so very low risk.

Anyone else see the problem with that logic?

Its apples and oranges, isn’t it? It’s certainly not “60 per million children admitted to intensive care after the Pfizer vaccine.” It’s 60 per million mild cases Confused

They’re comparing two completely different things.

If they compared “number per million children admitted to intensive care with covid and/or Mis-c and/or severe long covid symptoms needing ongoing medical care” that would be more similar at least.

bumbleymummy · 03/09/2021 23:32

may seem extreme but at least it is protecting the vulnerable. Including children.

But according to all the data, children are the least vulnerable group.