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Ivermectin bonkersness

405 replies

Thebookswereherfriends · 31/08/2021 13:18

I’ve just been reading about people all over the world who are buying a horse dewormer medicine to “cure” Covid-19. It makes people crap themselves, go blind and causes your intestinal lining to shed! How on earth does someone think taking a medication for animals is a good idea, but having a vaccine which is designed and tested for humans by actual doctors and scientists is crazy?!

OP posts:
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speckledostrichegg · 01/09/2021 13:03

@noblegiraffe

Someone who says something you don't agree with is 'biased'. Someone who says something you agree with is 'worth listening to except the mad bits about vaccines causing depopulation'.
Quite
Lilifer · 01/09/2021 13:47

@severelysound

IME ivermectin is only peddled as a treatment for covid by anti-vaxxers.

People who are vaccinated should be asking why we aren't throwing the same global resources and billions of €$£ at finding an effective treatment, though. Not necessarily Ivermectin, just any treatment which keeps people out of hospital.

If we could nail that, we could actually, properly end this thing. Long term.

The vaccines in their current form aren't going to do that. At least not anytime in the foreseeable future.

That's probably why so many 'anti-vaxers' are asking for more research. I think it's partly wishful thinking and partly sheer frustration and perhaps a little bit 'this isn't adding up'.

The worrying part for me though is the complete shut-down of any sort of discussion or debate. The fact checkers who have crowned themselves the authority on all factual-science (as if there was such a thing) and provide no actual facts or arguments or reasoning or 'here is how they might think this is factual but actually this study says X'. Nope. Treat everyone like they're 5 with a blanket "NO EVIDENCE" statement. Which helps nobody. I have read some studies which go "against the narrative" and I want them to actually prove it wrong not just tell me "this other doctor says there's no evidence".

This strategy, though, never ever works the opposite way against the narrative. The bias of the narrative is everywhere i.e calling it "horse dewormer" in news articles when it's an anti-parasitic drug in the same way as head lice treatment is an insecticide and heparin is an anticoagulant - both of which are types of medicine used on animals.

It's like Brexit and Trump have taught us nothing. The whole 'cutting out his tongue doesn't prove you're right, only that you fear what he might say' applies.

And there's a slightly different one that I'm not clever enough to put into a saying but basically: when has mimicking or minimising ever changed an opinion? The arguments are so full of strawmen and slippery slopes and sweeping generalisations and attacks on the person rather than logical discussion and nuance.
Ivermectin = Horse Dewormer
Brexit = racist
AZ = you take the pill ffs get a massive grip
Why aren't Pfizer legally on the hook? = anti vaxxer
This will lead to domestic vax passports = conspiracy theorists
Why aren't we counting hospitalisations properly = covid denier
Does the science on masks add up = covidiot

And that's when the mass hysteria has somewhat died down and we've gotten past calling everyone granny killers.

All this does is disengage people. They switch off. Science isn't this set in stone factual thing and a strategy based on said ever changing science should have sensible discussion. Debate. Questions. Some actual investigative fucking journalism.

And the final one is the bad faith arguments you see all the time on here. Telling people the vaccine was safe in pregnancy months ago, when there was literally 0 evidence of that (and not a single 1st tri vaxed baby born). Telling people it's the same as the flu shot (the main ones here are absolutely not but that doesn't mean they're not safe - they're just not the same at all). The AZ clots was another one. And on this very thread arguing that of course pharma would push a drug if they thought it worked. Sorry, what? A cheap as chips, widely available, off-patent drug. I'm not even sure if these are bad faith or just sheer naivety but either way... frustrating and helps nobody.

There are rarely black and white answers but a lot of black and white statements. Not just here, it's rife in just about every form of media and it's not good for anyone.

THE best post I have read on Mumsnet since March 2020 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👍🏻✅✅✅
LemonSwan · 01/09/2021 13:52

I found OPs question really fascinating and was interested in discussing it.

Its a shame this discussion has been entirely at cross purposes.

Half the board trying to talk about the 'why' (why people dont trust the advice/narrative) and the other half going on about the 'what' (whether Ivermectin has any legs).

This 'why' isn't really a question of epidemiology; its a question of psychology.

I will check back in to see if the thread turns around to the original question but if not wishing everyone a great day. Brew

speckledostrichegg · 01/09/2021 13:54

@Lilifer

Not sure how it can be considered the best post you've read for the past 18 months?! The points made have been proven to be invalid several times.

And on this very thread arguing that of course pharma would push a drug if they thought it worked. Sorry, what? A cheap as chips, widely available, off-patent drug. I'm not even sure if these are bad faith or just sheer naivety but either way... frustrating and helps nobody.

I'll say it again -

  1. Many cheap as chips, off patent drugs have been tested as potential treatments for COVID. Have a look at trials including solidarity, recovery and principle. Of these several have been shown to be effective and are now routinely used - for example dexamethasone which is even cheaper than ivermectin.

  2. Ivermectin is being trialled currently by several countries, I'm not sure why "big pharma" would allow this to happen if they were insistently trying to block it's use.

Lilifer · 01/09/2021 13:59

Speckledostrichegg don't worry, it's only my opinion you know, I'm not asking you to agree 😂

IvorBigarse · 01/09/2021 14:07

I agree @Lilifer that that's a great post by @severelysound.

It's quite exhausting sometimes, because there is so much money and time and resources and - yes - huge censorship behind maintaining approved narratives. But there are definitely cracks beginning to show in many aspects of this, largely thanks to the doctors, nurses lawyers and other professionals who have put their lives and careers on the line to openly dosagree. So I still sometimes have hope that many more people will soon see more of the lies, and try to resist the encroaching, scary levels of political control riding in on the back of this nasty virus.
There is no shame in extending the argument out from Ivermectin - in fact, it's crucial.

Gingernaut · 01/09/2021 14:25

There is no credible evidence for many of the 'quack' cures, from natural remedies to 're-purposed' medicines.

However, the contrarians who push them are too far down their rabbit holes to persuade them otherwise.

Many don't want to admit they've been duped, a lot genuinely believe the hype and none seem to understand that giving the charlatans and their quackery any kind of platform legitimizes the claims to the wavering, the iatrophobic and the contrarians.

Any talk of any 'legitimate' trials is paraded as 'proof' it works.

The fact that some repurposed drugs (some anti-inflammatories) have some beneficial effect is seized upon and the trials 'extrapolated' to other drugs.

There is no credible evidence ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine works - either as antivirals or as a treatment for the illness.

Trials where drugs have little to no benefit and may even be harmful are unethical and some have been stopped for this reason.

There is a need to keep misinformation to a minimum, but followers of this quackery, with their red herrings, calls to authority, sealioning and and whataboutary are muddying the waters and creating a murky world of dodgy references, outdated information and sowing seeds of doubt in a scared population.

Ontopofthesunset · 01/09/2021 14:28

The thing is, people only use words like 'approved narratives' if they are at heart conspiracy theorists. What you call an 'approved narrative' I call 'the best advice according to our current understanding". I accept that the advice may change as our understanding changes. And people only use the phrase "Big Pharma" in earnest if they haven't thought deeply about the multiple challenges and difficulties inherent in developing lifesaving medicines in a patent based industry. Just because the pharmaceutical industry is not a perfect charitable endeavour does not mean that all it does is evil or that its broadest intentions are bad. A bit like the EU, when you come to think of it.

HBGKC · 01/09/2021 14:46

@Ontopofthesunset you said "Just because the pharmaceutical industry is not a perfect charitable endeavour does not mean that all it does is evil or that its broadest intentions are bad."

But NO-ONE on this thread (or anywhere, ever, I would suggest) has said that! So why are you arguing against a nonsensical straw-man argument that only you have made?

Would you accept that pharmaceutical companies' first loyalty is to their shareholders, and therefore their top priority is profit? And that they will act/invest/market accordingly? (I'm not saying that's "evil", btw, but it's human nature.)

Or is even that too cynical for you, and you genuinely believe that Pfizer's top priority is the health/good of humankind?

Ontopofthesunset · 01/09/2021 14:52

Another thing I've noticed about conspiracy theorists is that they have a very dim view of human nature generally. They seem to assume that everyone lies and cheats and covers up as a matter of course.

I didn't quote anyone as having said exactly that about the pharmaceutical industry. It's simply that the cliched simplistic dismissive expression "Big Pharma " is often used by people who are suspicious of vaccinations and who assume that the profit motive overrides everything else.

But honestly, as my father in law used to say, you cannot reason people out of a position they have not reasoned themselves into. And the ivermectin/"approved narratives"/"chilling" shutdown of debate position is not a position that reason has reached.

severelysound · 01/09/2021 15:13

The points made have been proven to be invalid several times.

You sound exactly like a professional fact checker. I mean... you are literally claiming you can prove an opinion and an experience to be "invalid".

"It's worrying me that my neighbours seem to be painting their doors blue because it's my least favourite colour."

I'm deciding to prove your point invalid.

That is how ridiculous you look.

My main points were-
We're not throwing the same global resources and billions at treatments as we did vaccines.

I don't think we are? The US alone:
$2b to Pfizer, $1.5b to JJ, $4.5b to Moderna, $1b to AZ, $2b to NVx and $2b to S-GSK.

Do you have evidence to show we are spending that much on getting treatments to the stage vaccines are?

The worry part for me is the shut down of debate

This is a worried about doors being painted blue statement. If you want me to provide some sort of evidence I guess you could look at the updated YouTube T&Cs and the quarantining of subreddits. And the ongoing protests where subs like r/rapeyrapeporn are going private to protest that they haven't been shut down.

Then I quoted Tyrian Lannister lol

Did you seriously attempt to fact check me on this? If someone else said it first I'm not going to die on that hill. You can have this one.

Then I gave some examples of posts / arguments I've personally seen on MN

Are you fact checking me on this? Because I can spend the next hour trawling through old threads finding receipts or we can let the people who also saw them agree with me and the people who didn't see them think I'm an idiot. Or a covidiot. Or a conspiracy theorist. Or a Qanon far right pizzagate new world order microchip 5G hairy knuckled troll from 1984.

Thank you for proving my point on fact checkers and their ridiculousness.

speckledostrichegg · 01/09/2021 15:19

Nope @severelysound, not a "professional fact checker", just an epidemiologist sick of people spreading health misinformation that causes harm. I clearly explained your points that were invalid but here they are again - in your long rambling post above you seem to have missed out the actual bits I referred to.

And on this very thread arguing that of course pharma would push a drug if they thought it worked. Sorry, what? A cheap as chips, widely available, off-patent drug. I'm not even sure if these are bad faith or just sheer naivety but either way... frustrating and helps nobody.

I'll say it again -

  1. Many cheap as chips, off patent drugs have been tested as potential treatments for COVID. Have a look at trials including solidarity, recovery and principle. Of these several have been shown to be effective and are now routinely used - for example dexamethasone which is even cheaper than ivermectin.

  2. Ivermectin is being trialled currently by several countries, I'm not sure why "big pharma" would allow this to happen if they were insistently trying to block it's use.

speckledostrichegg · 01/09/2021 15:21

And a bit of terrifying light relief from the ivermectin facebook groups

"hubby started running fever. i've got the paste." Grin

Ivermectin bonkersness
Gingernaut · 01/09/2021 15:22

Opinion and experience are not objective facts.

Absolute. Objective. Truth.

Not anecdotes. Not opinion. Not a misunderstanding of statistics. Not conflation of ideas. Not an argument.

Just the facts.

And the facts are that the vaccines are effective, ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine are not effective, antibiotics don't work against viruses and no amount of woo will prevent infection.

If these drugs were effective, the prices would have gone through the roof. As it stands, the manufacturers of these drugs are warning that they are not effective.

The drug companies would be the first to be marketing them.

There is no conspiracy to shut down debate.

There is a need to stick to the facts and to keep what's said truthful.

severelysound · 01/09/2021 15:29

People only use words like 'approved narratives' if they are at heart conspiracy theorists

Hmm I mean... have you ever worked in tech? We definitely had 'approved narratives'. We had truths, half truths, noble lies and outright falsehoods. We had an entire department dedicated to navigating external PR and part of my job was navigating customer complains, and yes, a big part of that was agreeing on a narrative, which became approved, which was repeated and not to be wavered from.

And what about political parties and their party lines? Spin doctors?

Narratives exist outside of the realm of CT.

If you think they don't... it probably says more about you and your life experiences (and inability to comprehend others have different experiences) than it does about those you want to brand conspiracy theorists.

Another thing I've noticed about conspiracy theorists is that they have a very dim view of human nature generally. They seem to assume that everyone lies and cheats and covers up as a matter of course.

Sure. But lots of people share those traits and that doesn't mean they are all conspiracy theorists?

Those who feel politically or economically left behind. Those who've been treated unfairly in the past by authority figures. Those who've worked in businesses where these practices are common place.

Those who've... had different experiences to you?

I could go on but I'm not even sure what your point is here. It's a bit like reading a teenage boys thoughts and musings on childbirth...

severelysound · 01/09/2021 15:32

@speckledostrichegg honestly I just find that FB post incredibly sad.

None of this needed to happen.

Ontopofthesunset · 01/09/2021 15:37

As I said, no point trying to reason people out of a position they have not reasoned themselves into.

noblegiraffe · 01/09/2021 15:43

I'm absolutely sure that the government have ballsed up the management of covid. I'm definitely sure that they've lied about it, that they've actively suppressed data, and that they have been pumping out propaganda. With regard to schools, I spent quite a lot of time between September and Christmas posting about it.

What this hasn't made me do is go on marches with Piers Corbyn and listen to bullshit about mass depopulation or microchips. It hasn't made me buy medicine with 'for horses' written on it.

I am very confused by the notion that the government using propaganda techniques means that you suddenly lose all common sense, that an ability to spot bullshit in one direction means that you are utterly unable to see it in the other.

Like, if people are priding themselves on their critical thinking skills, why are they not applying them to the nonsense peddlers? Particularly when you can read some of them 'privately' discussing how to peddle their nonsense and dupe people because they are shit at internet security.

speckledostrichegg · 01/09/2021 15:44

[quote severelysound]@speckledostrichegg honestly I just find that FB post incredibly sad.

None of this needed to happen.

[/quote]
Well quite, and and people spreading misinformation like your posts is contributing to it

HBGKC · 01/09/2021 15:47

@Gingernaut Science is not "absolute, objective facts." Scientific enquiry requires almost the complete opposite attitude: constant questioning, hypothesising, testing, and the willingness to change/adjust hitherto sacred 'facts' according to new data eg the sun going around the earth. That was a scientific 'fact' - until it wasn't.

Here's a fact though:

Merck (manufacturer of Ivermectin, who put out a statement saying they didn't recommend its use for Covid) has been developing new drug treatments for Covid.

www.pharmaceutical-business-review.com/news/merck-rolling-submission-molnupiravir-covid-19-patients/amp/

Fact: these new treatments will be hugely more expensive than ivermectin is, and would make Merck massively more profit.

So no, the drug companies would NOT necessarily be 'the first to be marketing' existing treatments, if they're also developing new ones.

speckledostrichegg · 01/09/2021 15:49

For example - your posts that the vaccines aren't safe, that "big pharma" would never let a drug like ivermectin be approved to treat COVID.

I'm not sure how you don't understand that these sorts of rumours are what push people into sourcing ivermectin, meaning they're risking toxicity and avoiding a safe vaccine. So yes "none of this needed to happen", but spreading misinformation isn't going to stop it.

It's bizzare

SexTrainGlue · 01/09/2021 15:50

Inthese drugs were effective, the prices would have gone through the roof. As it stands, the manufacturers of these drugs are warning that they are not effective

Dexamethasone

Price has not shot up.

Discovery of its effectiveness was not suppressed - indeed it was lauded.

I do sometimes wonder if the conspiracy theory here if that 'they' don't wantcheap effective treatments. The evidence that actually there was huge support for establishing that dexamethosone (a cheap drug) as effective, really undermines that mindset.

As does the evidence of all the other drugs studied for effectiveness

There's no lack of people trying, and no barrier to establishing that something works (except perhaps cost - they aren't for example AFAIK looking at anything other that first generation TKIs).

What appears to be the barrier for ivermectin is the simplest. It doesn't actually work

speckledostrichegg · 01/09/2021 15:51

[quote HBGKC]@Gingernaut Science is not "absolute, objective facts." Scientific enquiry requires almost the complete opposite attitude: constant questioning, hypothesising, testing, and the willingness to change/adjust hitherto sacred 'facts' according to new data eg the sun going around the earth. That was a scientific 'fact' - until it wasn't.

Here's a fact though:

Merck (manufacturer of Ivermectin, who put out a statement saying they didn't recommend its use for Covid) has been developing new drug treatments for Covid.

www.pharmaceutical-business-review.com/news/merck-rolling-submission-molnupiravir-covid-19-patients/amp/

Fact: these new treatments will be hugely more expensive than ivermectin is, and would make Merck massively more profit.

So no, the drug companies would NOT necessarily be 'the first to be marketing' existing treatments, if they're also developing new ones. [/quote]
We are in a pandemic.

Literally every drug company is attempting to develop a vaccine and/or an anti-viral.

Many of these companies will also produce older drugs that quacks are pushing without evidence (HCQ, ivermectin).

Do you not see the problem with this reasoning?

noblegiraffe · 01/09/2021 15:51

^Merck (manufacturer of Ivermectin)

Ivermectin is out of patent isn't it? Anyone can manufacture it.

SexTrainGlue · 01/09/2021 15:56

The work that has gone in to new retroviral drugs during the pandemic (much greater impetus than in normal times) is something that would normally be counted as a benefit.

No, not all of them will work. But one hopes that the speculative work will pay off somehow, with more and better antivirals against more and different viruses at some point.

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