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Will you be angry if we end up back in lockdown?

768 replies

turnshavetabled · 27/08/2021 08:27

/ harsh restrictions?

I feel so tired of this all - but mostly tired of feeling lied to by the government. The false promises - 'irreversible' 'final lockdown until science / the vaccines can save the day'

And Scotland are already floating more restrictions, only a few weeks after reopening. It's gutting. I wish they would just tell us what the probably already know is likely to happen over the next few months.

OP posts:
HesterShaw1 · 01/09/2021 12:01

We may well have a "very difficult winter" ahead of us. It won't be made any easier by forcing businesses and schools to shut, with the associated fallout from that.

We do not need a lockdown because some people need hospitalisation! I can't believe people have become conditioned into saying this Angry. At least most people seem to have finally seen sense and don't bleat for lockdowns at the merest hint of infection rise.

Bloody well think through what you are advocating.

Since when (before January/February 2020 when China - a country we have not been in the habit of emulating) did "lockdowns" become the go to method of choice for trying to control and illness? And they don't even bloody work! Are you people forgetting that?

HesterShaw1 · 01/09/2021 12:01

You can see in Australia and New Zealand (to a lesser extent) that the worst part of anything is the build up, the dread before something happens. We can all remember the scenes from China and Italy last year and some of the scariest threads are from January to March 2020.

This is exactly it. We have seen what the virus looks like. And we have seen what shutting down society for weeks looks like.

PrincessNutNuts · 01/09/2021 12:22

[quote turnshavetabled]@PrincessNutNuts nothing changed since 2020 and Jan 2021..? Nothing at all?

Vaccines?[/quote]
The day before we went into Lockdown 2, the number of people in ventilated beds was 979. On the 27th August it was 988.

The vaccines can't do it on their own.

herecomesthsun · 01/09/2021 12:25

@HesterShaw1

We may well have a "very difficult winter" ahead of us. It won't be made any easier by forcing businesses and schools to shut, with the associated fallout from that.

We do not need a lockdown because some people need hospitalisation! I can't believe people have become conditioned into saying this Angry. At least most people seem to have finally seen sense and don't bleat for lockdowns at the merest hint of infection rise.

Bloody well think through what you are advocating.

Since when (before January/February 2020 when China - a country we have not been in the habit of emulating) did "lockdowns" become the go to method of choice for trying to control and illness? And they don't even bloody work! Are you people forgetting that?

Bloody well think through what you are advocating.

I'm advocating we do everything we can to avoid a lockdown.

Perhaps we agree on this?

MinesAMassiveSalad · 01/09/2021 12:30

I'll be seeing my family and friends now whatever is said.

frozendaisy · 01/09/2021 12:40

@user1497207191

I didn't say Covid patients should be priority over everyone else. I understand the pressures that the NHS are facing with the backlog of other patients. Which was my point. If you have a number of respiratory patients gasping for oxygen, whom need ICU there is less room for other needs. I know vaccines greatly reduce numbers but they are not infallible. So if, and it's all an if, Covid-variant-X, is rampant throughout the population 1% of a very large number could still equate to all ICU beds being full and there being a finite number of doctors and nurses.

So both Covid and other patients and all unforeseen A&E cases, and backlog care because conditions have deteriorated, and suicides and mental health breakdowns will all battling for part of a finite pie. Hence the possibility of a lockdown as the only thing a society can do is try and reduce some of those numbers. That's all I was saying.

I never suggested one health need had more priority over another.

ihavespoken · 01/09/2021 12:42

@Chessie678

I would be scared as to the precedent set. It is one thing to lockdown as an emergency response (though I always felt that the harm outweighed the benefit) but if we lockdown or impose severe restrictions again, then lockdown becomes normalised as a way to deal with insufficient NHS capacity. The idea that my and my families life will be controlled on a long-term basis by whether hospitals are busy is frightening.

If we "need" to lockdown when 95% of the population have antibodies and in relative terms a tiny percentage of the population is actually severely affected by covid, the same justification could apply every winter and to infectious diseases other than covid. Healthcare capacity is always a constrained resource in every country in the world. A new lockdown would show that our main value as a society is now maintaining "health" which has been very narrowly defined as ICU bed capacity - at any cost. So millions of people lose their livelihoods, social life, financial security and general wellbeing (and often also mental health and long-term physical health) and all the other things which make life worth living to marginally increase the chance of someone else having an ICU bed (assuming that the justification for lockdown would be about NHS capacity and not just about case numbers).

And when imposing moderate restrictions doesn't work - which we essentially know it won't from experience, particularly with the delta variant - then we impose severe restrictions and when they don't work quickly (which again they won't, as we already know) we impose them for longer. And then to "avoid another lockdown" we probably keep masks and social distancing and a load of other things which degrade everyone's quality of life (particularly children's) afterwards. And they become normalised over time too.

And by that time my son will have spent the vast majority of his life living under some form of restrictions and in a toxic culture which conditions people see each other as dangerous biohazards and puts up literal barriers between them. And long-term he and his generation will have to pay for this.

I would also be concerned about the economic impact, which seems now to be ignored by the press and government. The economy thrives on certainty and part of the damage caused by being in and out of lockdown has been the erosion of any certainty. Why would you start up a new business if it could be closed down indefinitely at any moment or forced to trade in conditions which can't be profitable. You can't link the functionality of your economy to availability of hospital beds and expect it to prosper. The unlocking was probably described as irreversible in order to create some certainty. I think we are taking a huge risk with the economy (and therefore our ability to fund public services like healthcare in future) by printing money like we have been. Maybe it will work out ok but it could easily be catastropic, even more so than running out of healthcare capacity in the short-term.

I've no idea about compliance. I wouldn't personally comply with any rule about not seeing my family. But I think people are naturally quite compliant (and many quite like being able to turn away from society and stay in a bubble) and the government's behavioural scientists have so far managed to create essentially the behaviour they intended to. I don't think they will be able to create the same level of personal fear again though. And I think if the financial support went or was reduced you would see a very different response to lockdown than what we have seen so far.

Great post - thankyou
Whammyyammy · 01/09/2021 12:42

I complied fully with the 1st, then haven't bothered and would'nt.

Weve been to restaurants, pubs, abroad twice (eu only) , nights away at UK hotels, wore masks when it was mandatory only.
Life is for living, so we've cracked on and done exactly that.

HesterShaw1 · 01/09/2021 12:54

The time has come, if this disease is becoming endemic as it clearly is, to make provision for those who will end up in hospital needing oxygen etc, rather than simply saying "Oh we will need a lockdown to protect the NHS". Yes, investing in hospitals and staff is a long term project, so it needs to start happening now. I'm still completely astonished at the much heralded (and then quickly forgotten) Nightingale Hospital debacle, when apparently the government thought the masses would be amazed and impressed by the rollout of these facilities and not actually question whether or not they needed to be staffed.

If Covid is going to be with us long term, we can't let it take precedence over all other illness just because it's Covid.

Protecting the NHS means maintaining and investing in it, not expecting life to screech to a halt at regular intervals so that people are unable to access it.

Delatron · 01/09/2021 12:57

I think given than Covid will be endemic. And there will always be cases circulating we need to move away from lockdowns (which we have btw) and on to our long term plan for dealing with an endemic virus which will put pressure on the NHS every year.

So start investing more in hospitals for a start.

Hopefully more research in to long Covid and better treatments.

A long term, sustainable plan. Which doesn’t involve restrictions on our lives. For a virus which will always be here.

Delatron · 01/09/2021 12:58

Cross posted with @HesterShaw1 but basically saying the same thing!

Bizawit · 01/09/2021 13:29

*I'm advocating we do everything we can to avoid a lockdown.

Perhaps we agree on this*

Not if what you mean is we must live with a string of restrictions that are interfering with quality of life, mental well-being, other aspects of physical health, education, the economy, etc.
I do not want to live under covid restrictions indefinitely under the elusive promise of “preventing another lockdown” which i never supported and would nit support in any case.
What needs to change is our attitude towards this disease and how we manage it. In March 2020 we lost all sense of proportionality , perspective and balance. I’m so glad to see that is changing.

NannyAndJohn · 01/09/2021 13:36

[quote Delatron]@herecomesthsun the lockdowns were to buy time until the vaccines were rolled out..

Things are somewhat different now 🙄.[/quote]
The vaccines haven't been fully rolled out yet. We still need to vaccinate children and give boosters.

severelysound · 01/09/2021 13:36

Protecting the NHS means maintaining and investing in it, not expecting life to screech to a halt at regular intervals so that people are unable to access it.

Absolutely.

And perhaps if we all accept it's endemic we can focus on prevention.

The CDC studied half a million randomised hospitalisations and concluded the top risk factors in all three categories (deaths, ventilation and ICU admissions) are:

  1. Obesity
  2. Anxiety and Fear-related Disorders
  3. Diabetes with Complication

Yes there will be exceptions for all three where nothing can be done... but how can we say we're willing to accept:

Closing schools
Closing businesses
Restricting travel
Enforcing isolation
Separating family
Financial repercussions

Nationwide.

But nothing, at all, can be done about the 3 biggest groups of people taking up the ICU beds?

In fact, our entire strategy this far (and the one many are arguing to continue) has likely increased the numbers in those highest risk groups.

Now we have the "containment" sorted with vaccines we need to focus on the corrective - effective treatments in the absence of sterilising vaccines - and the preventatives, which means the root cause of the problem. And the problem for society since day one has been hospital capacity being overrun.

NannyAndJohn · 01/09/2021 13:40

[quote Delatron]@herecomesthsun

I don’t need reminding what I said thank you.

Of course a lockdown is an emergency measure. Just because unfortunately we had to have 3 doesn’t change this fact. It’s still not a long term strategy.. unless you disagree and think it is?

The November lockdown was the same. They all have been kicking the can down the road until we could vaccinate the population/ ease the pressure on the NHS. The goal was never elimination.
So what would be the goal with another lockdown?

But you continue to align yourself with Nanny. Maybe read the thread and see how that will go...
Fortunately 99% on here disagree with her and you.[/quote]
Fortunately 99% on here disagree with her and you.

Well thankfully the majority of the Great British Public agree with us.

Polls always come out in favour of reintroducing restrictions when necessary.

NannyAndJohn · 01/09/2021 13:44

[quote turnshavetabled]@PrincessNutNuts nothing changed since 2020 and Jan 2021..? Nothing at all?

Vaccines?[/quote]
Erm... Delta?

turnshavetabled · 01/09/2021 13:45

@NannyAndJohn why do you spend your life (literally 7 days a week for over a year) trying to tell people stuff that isn't true or we don't want to hear?

What difference do you think it will make? If nothing anyone says will make your predictions / opinions change then why do you bother? What do you get out of it?

OP posts:
Nicknacky · 01/09/2021 13:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Nicknacky · 01/09/2021 14:15

@MNHQ Why was my message deleted? There was nothing offensive of any breach of guidelines that I could see. How bizarre and OTT to remove it.

HesterShaw1 · 01/09/2021 14:33

Polls always come out in favour of reintroducing restrictions when necessary.

These polls full of leading questions which an entirely self selecting cohort fill in?

Sillysop92 · 01/09/2021 14:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sillysop92 · 01/09/2021 14:42

I’ve reported my post above due to bad spelling and because it could be deemed as troll hunting.

stepupandbecounted · 01/09/2021 14:47

We aren't going to have another lockdown, at most we will have a few restrictions back. We can't actually afford another lockdown, even if we needed/wanted one!!! Has anyone seen the levels of debt....perhaps look at that and see if we can do another one, short answer: NO way.

herecomesthsun · 01/09/2021 14:54

@Bizawit

*I'm advocating we do everything we can to avoid a lockdown.

Perhaps we agree on this*

Not if what you mean is we must live with a string of restrictions that are interfering with quality of life, mental well-being, other aspects of physical health, education, the economy, etc.
I do not want to live under covid restrictions indefinitely under the elusive promise of “preventing another lockdown” which i never supported and would nit support in any case.
What needs to change is our attitude towards this disease and how we manage it. In March 2020 we lost all sense of proportionality , perspective and balance. I’m so glad to see that is changing.

What restrictions are those, as we currently have very few, other than some encouragements that aren't being enforced?
Chloemol · 01/09/2021 15:24

No