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NZ back into lockdown.

714 replies

Malin52 · 17/08/2021 09:00

1 case in the community. All of NZ back into lockdown Level 4 because no link to border found.

Hard and fast.

OP posts:
L1ttleSeahorse · 24/08/2021 07:50

It will be much easier for them not coming from lockdown fatigue like we have though. And also with jabs in sight. Remember first lockdown we had no answers .

LimeRedBanana · 24/08/2021 08:56

You’re right - we don’t have lockdown fatigue. Most kiwis (hardcore Nat/ACT supporters aside, of course) are fine with the current approach.

We know numbers are yet to peak. We’re waiting patiently for the effects of lockdown to kick in.

And we’re also looking over the horizon at what Delta really means, at the rapidly increasing vaccination rates, and what the get out strategy will be.

No-one things we’ll be living like this for much longer. Even the Spanish flu only went on for a couple of years!

Every pandemic eventually gets under control, no matter how much some people love to catastrophise.

RedToothBrush · 24/08/2021 10:12

Lockdown fatigue is the big issue for any country trying to deal with high cases.

It, unfortunately, doesn't take long to kick in. So thats really the current issue for NZ in terms of stopping the outbreak, because as soon as fatigue starts to kick in, so does break down in compliance on all levels (testing, isolation and staying home).

I don't actually think where a country is with vaccinations stops this breakdown - if anything, the closer you get to the magic % being touted, the quicker compliance breaks down as people start to think 'oh it doesn't matter as much now, its nearly all done'. I don't think people are more likely to stay home, 'because we are nearly there' unfortunately.

Thats what NZ has to manage which is a completely different kettle of fish to the UK which had areas of the country who had almost constant restrictions of some kind between March 2020 and July 2021 (Leicester and Greater Manchester). In the UK vaccinations being in sight was irrelevant and compliance did start to break down long before vaccines started to kick in.

Thats where a difference in naturally produced immunity between NZ and the UK might become more apparent later on too. Particularly if there isn't a grip made on this current outbreak in NZ. In the UK earlier exposure for younger age groups might help reduce issues in this age group, compared to exposure to more problematic Delta. We don't fully know yet.

Its a completely different situation as the pyschology is markedly different and that will affect behaviour.

TheDailyCarbunkle · 24/08/2021 13:33

It always really baffled me when people said NZ had 'done really well' and were a 'huge success.' It was always true that at some point they would have to open their borders and deal with an upsurge of cases. There was a very slim chance that covid would simply fizzle out and they would avoid it forever, but that was never very likely. They did manage to wait for their surge until after vaccines had been rolled out but then failed to take full advantage of that situation - which is a real failure.

Overall I don't think they have done any better or worse than anywhere else - it's a virus and there is a very hard limit to what you can actually do, especially over a long period of time, to control things. All the situation illustrates is that there's no perfect solution, every approach has its downsides and expecting to stay free of covid forever is totally unrealistic.

What would be really impressive would be if Jacinda now said 'we tried but this strategy didn't work' and found a way to let her people live as normal a life as possible while managing the rate of infection. Most leaders are too immature to take that approach - they get too concerned about saving face and proving they were right to actually do what's needed, which is to admit defeat, let go of pointless zero covid fantasies and manage the situation sensibly for the benefit of everyone rather than for covid point-scoring. I doubt she'd do it, but if she did I would be very very impressed.

MapleMay11 · 24/08/2021 13:52

@Merrymermaid7

They have had complete freedom whilst we have been in lockdown, will probably be shortlived and good luck to them
There has never been complete freedom though due to closed borders and the question has always been, particularly more so since the spread of the delta variant, what will happen when borders reopen. A protracted vaccination rollout means immunity will be waning among the first groups to be vaccinated before the first phase is complete so a booster programme will need to run concurrently. This relies on both proactive procurement, adequate supply and efficient rollout. With those things in place and assuming capacity within the healthcare system has been boosted to cope with the inevitable increase in demand, countries with a very small population size should find this manageable. We will find out in the coming months.
IndigoC · 24/08/2021 14:34

What would be really impressive would be if Jacinda now said 'we tried but this strategy didn't work' and found a way to let her people live as normal a life as possible while managing the rate of infection. Most leaders are too immature to take that approach - they get too concerned about saving face and proving they were right to actually do what's needed, which is to admit defeat, let go of pointless zero covid fantasies and manage the situation sensibly for the benefit of everyone rather than for covid point-scoring. I doubt she'd do it, but if she did I would be very very impressed.

This is basically what Gladys Berejiklian is doing in NSW and she’s getting absolutely roasted for it. I think she’s very brave.

LimeRedBanana · 24/08/2021 15:32

What would be really impressive would be if Jacinda now said 'we tried but this strategy didn't work' and found a way to let her people live as normal a life as possible while managing the rate of infection. Most leaders are too immature to take that approach - they get too concerned about saving face and proving they were right to actually do what's needed, which is to admit defeat, let go of pointless zero covid fantasies and manage the situation sensibly for the benefit of everyone rather than for covid point-scoring. I doubt she'd do it, but if she did I would be very very impressed.

Thats exactly what Boris has done, so I guess you should be thankful for the, um, leadership you’ve already got.

sashagabadon · 24/08/2021 15:42

I don’t know all the pros and cons of Gladys as a politician generally but I do think she is leading the country slowly out of zero Covid and into a forward looking scenario. It is brave, it’s politically easier and logistically easier to keep head in sand and to just stay in 2020 mindset. Look at how much conversation has changed in Oz in the last month. I posted something like “it’s inevitable delta will spread” in early July and many of the responses were What!! Australia is doing brilliantly! envy of the world!
It is harder for NSW as they are trying to bend the curve of cases while rolling out the vaccine with no natural immunity.
In many ways that is harder than we had it in the U.K. as while we were rolling out vaccines in a surge of cases we always had a background of natural immunity to help us.
I think NSW will get there and give confidence to the other states to follow.

TheDailyCarbunkle · 24/08/2021 16:07

@LimeRedBanana

What would be really impressive would be if Jacinda now said 'we tried but this strategy didn't work' and found a way to let her people live as normal a life as possible while managing the rate of infection. Most leaders are too immature to take that approach - they get too concerned about saving face and proving they were right to actually do what's needed, which is to admit defeat, let go of pointless zero covid fantasies and manage the situation sensibly for the benefit of everyone rather than for covid point-scoring. I doubt she'd do it, but if she did I would be very very impressed.

Thats exactly what Boris has done, so I guess you should be thankful for the, um, leadership you’ve already got.

Boris is a total idiot but that doesn't negate the fact that he's doing the only thing that can really be done, which is to accept that covid is a virus that will continue to circulate and constant panic measures to 'control' and 'contain' it are not only pointless but damaging. It's just a fact that at some point every country has to accept that life has to continue and that waiting and waiting and waiting. or locking down over and over has serious long term consequences while not really achieving anything in the long run.
sashagabadon · 24/08/2021 16:55

Although Boris has made mistakes I do think you could argue that he has shown leadership particularly around the opening up and getting us ( the public) to understand that we do have to live with the virus. Everyone in the U.K. accepts this now, even our pro zero Covid advocates have come to this way of thinking. The public certainly have. He told us people will catch Covid and die and I do think NZ politicians have yet to come to this conclusion and be honest with the people. Leadership is telling people the truth. Boris could have delayed the 19th July date, he was under immense pressure to do so both here in the U.K. and internationally but he didn’t. That’s leadership in my view.
All of this is very very hard. I don’t envy any politician of any country. It’s not a job I’d be able to do.

Clearlyunhinged · 24/08/2021 21:44

Boris is a total idiot but that doesn't negate the fact that he's doing the only thing that can really be done, which is to accept that covid is a virus that will continue to circulate and constant panic measures to 'control' and 'contain' it are not only pointless but damaging. It's just a fact that at some point every country has to accept that life has to continue and that waiting and waiting and waiting. or locking down over and over has serious long term consequences while not really achieving anything in the long run.

Totally agree and glad I live in the UK tbh right now

gofg · 25/08/2021 02:13

It's just a fact that at some point every country has to accept that life has to continue and that waiting and waiting and waiting. or locking down over and over has serious long term consequences while not really achieving anything in the long run.

Funny how the people who have been locked down over and over are the ones lecturing those who have been locked down TWICE (which is the case for most of NZ) Hmm Remind me how long since the UK loosened restrictions again? Do you know with absolute certainty what is going to happen in the future?

StartupRepair · 25/08/2021 02:38

Gladys didn't try. She refused to act at the start of the outbreak because she wanted to differentiate herself from the Labour state leaders. Her stubbornness and intransigence has led to millions of people and two countries being locked down. She is not brave: she is culpable.

DetMcNulty · 25/08/2021 04:26

@StartupRepair

Gladys didn't try. She refused to act at the start of the outbreak because she wanted to differentiate herself from the Labour state leaders. Her stubbornness and intransigence has led to millions of people and two countries being locked down. She is not brave: she is culpable.
Agree with this, she didn't try, she let the cases add up for too long because she didn't want to back down after constantly criticising the other (Labour) states. NSW let it get to the remote, vulnerable communities and are still letting people travel out there to go house hunting, which I cannot agree with.

I bet she's regretting this nonsense- www.afr.com/politics/why-critics-don-t-faze-the-premier-who-steered-a-nation-20210413-p57iog

Never mind all the other corruption...

Bryonyshcmyony · 25/08/2021 07:53

Lecturing? Or speaking from experience?

Cousinit · 25/08/2021 08:27

Painting Gladys as some kind of heroic leader doesn't wash with me either. Her inaction has led to an absolute shit show and is threatening the rest of Aus and led to our second lockdown in NZ (thanks Gladys). In response to the pp who suggested Jacinda should follow suit, we are nowhere near the point where it would be sensible to throw in the towel. All of the scientific advisors here have been quite emphatic that the elimination strategy remains the best option for NZ at least until we have higher vaccination rates.

RedToothBrush · 25/08/2021 08:51

@gofg

It's just a fact that at some point every country has to accept that life has to continue and that waiting and waiting and waiting. or locking down over and over has serious long term consequences while not really achieving anything in the long run.

Funny how the people who have been locked down over and over are the ones lecturing those who have been locked down TWICE (which is the case for most of NZ) Hmm Remind me how long since the UK loosened restrictions again? Do you know with absolute certainty what is going to happen in the future?

We absolutely don't.

I am the first person to admit that I'm feeling much more apprehensive than I was about where we are with the UK policy.

I was on board with the UK strategy and reopening. Numbers looked high but modelling and reasoning sounded ok. And I definitely have concerns about other illnesses and the effect of lockdowns on immunity for childhood diseases. I have a 6 year old who hasn't been exposed to much in the last 18 months and that concerns me long term. I have friends and family with younger children and I am pretty concerned about this going into winter. So i have been fully on board with having contact with people over the summer, both from that point of view and a psychology one.

The numbers since July reopening have been ok, until about the middle of last week. Things are now starting to look rocky.

There was information that suggested we'd reach immunity levels which would naturally force the R rate below 1 next week. Its been hoovering between R1 and R1.1 so things have been relatively stable. But the news about Scotland's reopening of schools and waning immunity are certainly not great and beg some huge questions.

Cases in the over 80s in particular are starting to rise again and hospitalisations are creeping up.

The fact that Pfizers effectiveness seems to drop suddenly is a huge deal. Those vaccinated first are now potentially going to be more at risk at just the wrong moment. And the plans for a booster program look like they are being quietly shelved. The closure of some of the mass vaccination centres is something i see as being frightening in its own right for that reason.

I had fully expected the Autumn to be bumpy here, and i have always felt we haven't seen the end of restrictions here yet, despite what we've been told previously.

I've also always been concerned about subsequent waves of covid being worse than the first and that it might suddenly start affecting children much worse because its always been in the back of my mind that the second wave of Spanish flu was significantly worse. Slowing things down by lockdown disrupted the natural pattern so its difficult to know for sure what would have been part of the first, second or third waves naturally or whether disrupting this pattern would make things worse.

Thats always been a concern of mine with regards to how things would play out long term in NZ. And whether there would be a sting in the tail that left NZ particularly vulnerable in the medium term. It has on the surface always looked like NZ have handled things well, but its still a live experiment and there are reasons why NZ might have more problems long term, which haven't really been fully acknowledged. Maybe not to the extent of the mistakes in the UK but certainly not 'the miracle' that has also been held up as an example. I tend to think the reality sits somewhere in the middle. I hope its towards the better end but that remains to be seen.

With waning immunity an issue - particularly with Pfizer (AZ's effectiveness is currently looking more stable and long lasting which may well make it preferable in the long term) effectiveness dropping suddenly there's now a conversation going on about how a high case rate may be preferable to maintain higher levels of immunity by effectively potentially providing a natural booster, whilst people have higher levels of protection from vaccines and that people who have been vaccinated and who have also caught covid have higher levels of immunity (which also helps in the longer term). This is where delayed second vaccines in the UK might start looking very smart compared to other countries too and it buys the uk more time.

Whether this theorising plays out to hold true certainly remains to be seen. However there's some things in this which may raise particular questions about NZs strategy.

Firstly is a prolonged vaccination programme if boosters are needed and the implications and ethics of whether you do boosters or second doses first.
Second is the fact that whilst NZ has enough vaccine for its population its only just talking about ordering additional doses with a potential booster in mind (keep in mind that the UK was doing this months ago as there were concerns about waning immunity being talked about in at least May).
Third is the pursuit of a Pfizer only vaccination policy and what implications there may be from that (AZ followed by Pfizer tentatively is actually looking better than two doses of the same or Pfizer followed by AZ) particularly if immunity drops more suddenly with Pfizer.
Fourth is a 3 - 4 week gap.
Fifth is low natural immunity levels.
And sixth could, ironically, yet be low case rates when vaccination levels are high.

We simply don't know.

Strategy was always a long game and not the short term one for the first wave we've been led to believe.

I think that there are potential pitfalls and issues ahead for both countries in this regard. We wont fully know how well either has done until we look back retrospectively in about 2030 and have full sight and understanding of how things progressed differently around the world and what strategies worked and which didn't do as well as initially they looked.

I certainly think that AZ looking like it might be more stable for effectiveness for longer, is something no one has forseen coming and could be significant yet. Also the gap between vaccinations may yet play out to be significant because we may see immunity drop off in countries which had a short gap and were pfizer only (or had a big problem with AZ) having bigger, more sudden drops in immunity and having them sooner than the UK.

There really are so many variables and this really is a live experiment for us all. Its also why NZ is so fascinating and will draw so much attention. I just wish it had the attention without the nationalism. The bottom line is the UK and NZ had very different issues and options open to them and have made different decisions. Some more by necessity than by design and some more due to luck and geography/trade link rather than the complete ineptitude some feel there was.

Kokeshi123 · 25/08/2021 09:00

Really good post, Red. I always enjoy reading what you write.

L1ttleSeahorse · 25/08/2021 09:03

Wow Red. Your posts are always fantastic. Thankyou for taking the time to write them. I am secretely hoping you are a person of some influence irl!

RedToothBrush · 25/08/2021 09:12

@Cousinit

Painting Gladys as some kind of heroic leader doesn't wash with me either. Her inaction has led to an absolute shit show and is threatening the rest of Aus and led to our second lockdown in NZ (thanks Gladys). In response to the pp who suggested Jacinda should follow suit, we are nowhere near the point where it would be sensible to throw in the towel. All of the scientific advisors here have been quite emphatic that the elimination strategy remains the best option for NZ at least until we have higher vaccination rates.
I think Gladys is best summed at as having failed at what she was supposed to be doing. Then was good at spin.

It certainly wasn't a grand master plan and was definitely trying to polish a turd in terms of how it all looked and where Australia are with their vaccination programme.

RedToothBrush · 25/08/2021 09:16

@L1ttleSeahorse

Wow Red. Your posts are always fantastic. Thankyou for taking the time to write them. I am secretely hoping you are a person of some influence irl!
Haha if only. I despair of politics. I post in the hope that it makes people think - whether they be influential or just Jo Bloggs. I believe that sometimes you don't have to get heard by the right people - you just need to be heard. Being heard by ordinary people has its own value. The truth resonates and usually becomes more apparent with hindsight.
TheDailyCarbunkle · 25/08/2021 09:21

Spot on @RedToothBrush.

What concerns me about attitudes around NZ is that because it seems better to have 'zero covid' there is then a lack of real examination of what that actually means in a world where covid isn't going to go away. It appears to me that some people really believe that permanent zero covid, ie having a situation in which NZ always has no or very few cases, is actually possible. How is it possible?

NanyangParkway · 25/08/2021 09:29

So well said.

Cousinit · 25/08/2021 10:05

Agreed, that is a great and very insightful post, Red. I didn't know the UK was turning away from the idea of boosters. Why? Some of our relatives in Europe have just had theirs this week.

RedToothBrush · 25/08/2021 11:19

@Cousinit

Agreed, that is a great and very insightful post, Red. I didn't know the UK was turning away from the idea of boosters. Why? Some of our relatives in Europe have just had theirs this week.
They aren't turning away, or at least its not been said, yet.

However there is a change of tone.

It was previously said that all over 50s, key workers and vulnerable patients would get a booster in a programme due to start in September. Possibly at the same time as having a flu jab (which is to be an extended programme of vaccinations in its own right).

However the language in the last couple of weeks has shifted to 'the most vulnerable' only with questions starting to be raised about whether healthy adults need a booster or whether this will lead to us being stuck in a cycle of boosters which might be bad for us and not as effective as natural immunity.

Its not been made entirely clear who will definitely be getting a booster as a result. It sounds like the most elderly and the most clinically vulnerable are on the cards, but now not necessarily everyone over 50.

Advice from JVCI / a formal decision has not yet been reached, but certainly at this stage it looks like the position has shifted back from where it was and it doesn't sound like the booster programme is likely to be as extensive as was initally suggested.

I think it is one of these where there could be a certain amount of shifting in position as things progress over the next few months and more information is available.

My suspicion is that we are now more likely to see a recommendation of vaccinating all secondary school children before boosters in some 50s groups, as there is growing evidence of it being more beneficial to older children and to society in general. Which was very much a borderline argument a couple of months ago. I think the jury is still out on primary age children.

I think part of the reasoning behind the uk not going for comprehensive boosters is because of questions about whether we all need it. I am a bit hazy on this, but I've seen suggestions that there is research which brings into question whether you would need a booster if you've had covid too because covid + vaccination means higher levels of immunity. And this might make sense if we have a higher case load in the UK. I am wondering, with the news this week that those people who have PCR can have an antibody test at the same time might be connected with getting a bit more data in this area and making an assessment about it. It make me suspect there might be a leaning towards only giving boosters to people who haven't tested postive for covid / following an antibody test in the UK. I am speculating here, but I do think theres a few things to watch out for in the coming months with regard to UK strategy.

These decisions being different from other countries do have massive implications for travel though, which I think is a really over looked issue. Foreign policy is way behind domestic policy making.

We know about the India Batch problem quite well now in the UK, but there are lots of other little differences which are going to be issues. Some countries are requiring vaccinations for 12 - 16 year olds to avoid quarantine or entry to various places, which leaves teenagers in limbo. Again, this one is fairly well known. But there are other much less well known issues. I was reading last night about how Austria is only allowing entry on the basis of being within 270 days of your last jab so your certification can effectively expire. Its not hard to see how different policies in different countries might make that something of a problem. At the moment most people in the UK will be ok with that sunset clause - particularly because we had delayed second doses, but that might start becoming a problem for people in the coming months.

Most worryingly on this front, I'm not seeing much international effort or cooperation to start building a consensus / recognising other countries strategies as being acceptable. And that even remains true within the EU, which is going to make it even more difficult for the UK. We should be having talking on this type of stuff and I'm not sure we are seeing enough of it. This is the result of so much Covid Nationalism which is putting up hundreds of little unseen barriers that ordinary people are unwitting victims of and might be well and truly caught out by, with little or no way to find ways around it.

We already know that those on vaccination trials have been hung out to dry and now are getting 'official doses' because they don't have the 'correct paperwork' which undermines research into new vaccinations and trust in future trials for volunteers. It also has political and financial implications for other vaccines - with those approved early and by Western Nations having a significant advantage.

I think someone said upthread we should look to Israel rather than NZ for whats coming next because NZ are effectively 'behind the uk' in their strategy, and I definitely have half an eye on whats going on there, but I also think some of it irrelevant too because they've had certain differences. I also think that the politics of decision making rather than merely the science behind it, are becoming much more important. I think this is where NZ is a better example, because its much more obvious because we've had much more distant differences in options open to us and then had very different strategies. The differences between what Israel and the UK have both done aren't quite as obvious.

I don't think either the UK and NZ have done as much 'wrong' as some suggest once your eliminate how prepared each were when covid hit. I maintain that much of the UK's problem was down to lack of prepareness and how that leads to a crisis spiralling in a way that almost is impossible to stop and that you can only make decisions based on the information based on at the time. The less you have, the harder it is to get it right and this is where luck and location are massively important. And its too easy with hindsight to forget the lack of information you had early on.

I think where the UK is now leaning is towards, needing more information rather than making decisions 'off the hoof' which it was doing much more early on (based off knowledge in other areas). Whereas I think other countries are perhaps doing the opposite in a sense by leaning towards medicalisation without formal evidence on the basis of what they know in other areas. There's an argument in ethics on this one - in the UK 'do nothing / do not intervene' is the default unless you have an emergency, with the emphasis on evidence building being crucial before recommendation/policy making and we are clearly switching back to the latter whereas others may still be treating the situation as still in crisis mode. Where do we now stand ethically? Is it still a crisis situation or are we into the long term management phase? As I say there is a debate to be had on this.

(Sorry this is slightly off topic but I do think is within the scope of the thread and the importance of whats happening in NZ and why especially in relation to what others are doing)