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Will this level of cases now just be acceptable?

758 replies

Tuba437 · 16/08/2021 19:26

Just having a think to myself. We're now at around 30k cases a day in general. The 7 day average daily deaths is about 89 (this was for around 45-50k cases a day). We can assume that I a month or so deaths will be at around 60 a day.

Over a year that works out at about 21k worth of deaths. Will this just be the acceptable number. We know the vaccine doesn't stop the spread so I highly doubt were ever just going to get down to sub 5k cases a day again.

21k is considered a very mild flu death rate for the year. We have a new virus around now so more deaths a year are going to be a thing whether we like it or not.

I also think red list countries should only be for countries with worrying variants. If I don't have to isolate if my wife tests positive (just daily testing) then why on earth would I have to spend 1500 on a government hotel to quarantine as I've been to a country with a lower covid rate than us?

Sorry about the rant.

OP posts:
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GoldenOmber · 22/08/2021 23:33

I didn’t say of this magnitude, as you well know, this is just you boxing yourself into a corner. I said a health reason

“I’m not budging on this, masks are widely accepted in other cultures (as they are in various professions) with no detrimental social effects on children”

After I questioned you on that, you added ‘when there is a health reason’. In italics. If you’re saying that there are various cultures where mask usage is accepted during a health crisis, then that’s most cultures on the planet right now.

It’s typically anything from a cold, to hay fever, to pollution.

I said colds and pollution, though. And you told me I was very very wrong and started demanding to know which of those cultures I had lived in, right now, tell me right now I’M WAITING. (Are you like this in real life?)

speckledostrichegg · 22/08/2021 23:33

Personally, I would rather resources are focussed on better, faster and more efficient methods of screening the general population for COVID infection. If we could get a point where people didn't have to assume they had COVID and were potentially infectious (and therefore do things like mask wearing and SD), this would be extremely beneficial and be associated with better adherence to suppression policies.

GoldenOmber · 22/08/2021 23:35

Again, which one of these cultures do you know? Since you’ve avoided the question we’ll all assume none.

Mate, if it makes you feel better about whatever weird crusade you’re on here, you can tell yourself I’ve never left my own living room.

HoppingHamster · 22/08/2021 23:38

@GoldenOmber

Mate, I’d give up if I were you. You lost this one ages ago.

GoldenOmber · 22/08/2021 23:38

“I just looked it up on wiki”

Confused it’s not exactly little-known trivia, you know? But even if I had only heard about it for the first time five minutes ago, it still wouldn’t mean what you were claiming it means.

GoldenOmber · 22/08/2021 23:40

[quote HoppingHamster]@GoldenOmber

Mate, I’d give up if I were you. You lost this one ages ago.[/quote]
What is it I’ve lost, here? Because I don’t think RoseStar has any idea, at all, what views it is I hold that she’s actually arguing with.

GoldenOmber · 22/08/2021 23:53

@speckledostrichegg

Personally, I would rather resources are focussed on better, faster and more efficient methods of screening the general population for COVID infection. If we could get a point where people didn't have to assume they had COVID and were potentially infectious (and therefore do things like mask wearing and SD), this would be extremely beneficial and be associated with better adherence to suppression policies.
I think we could do more with LFTs there, even if they’re a bit unpleasant compared to something like saliva testing.

There’s good case for a push asking for more rapid tests for entrance for all sorts of things now people aren’t going to be so worried about all their close contacts having to self-isolate, too.

GoldenOmber · 22/08/2021 23:56

well, that was a garbled sentence. I meant: Now that testing positive doesn’t mean all your close contacts need to isolate too, it’s removed one of the downsides of testing for many. So there’s a good case for more places asking for a negative LFT as a condition of entrance.

Peteycat · 23/08/2021 08:53

Please don't assume in not part of the groups I mentioned. You have absolutely no idea which one I may or may not fall into.

user1497207191 · 23/08/2021 10:06

@speckledostrichegg

Personally, I would rather resources are focussed on better, faster and more efficient methods of screening the general population for COVID infection. If we could get a point where people didn't have to assume they had COVID and were potentially infectious (and therefore do things like mask wearing and SD), this would be extremely beneficial and be associated with better adherence to suppression policies.
We have a huge testing centre in an out of town car park. Whenever we drive past, there's barely anyone there. Just lots of staff in dayglo jackets looking bored. I think we DO have the testing facilities, but for some reason, people aren't using them.

I'd suggest that a lot of people have been "pinged" to self isolate and that suits them if they are in a job where they continue to get paid. I.e. a week off. If they take a test which turns out negative, they'd have to go back to work. Hence, they won't do it and will just not go to work.

lannistunut · 23/08/2021 10:22

@user1497207191 we don't have very efficient testing here in the UK - the choice is a slow but accurate PCR, or a fast but inaccurate LFT.

Both are unpleasant to take and suffer from high incidence of user error.

I agree that investment in a fast and comfortable test with high accuracy would be a huge improvement. If we had e.g. spit tests, we could remove a lot of risk.

Amboseli · 23/08/2021 11:24

HRFT but I think we absolutely have to accept a certain level of covid deaths every year. We accept flu deaths so why not covid as well?

The only issue as I see it is if we're basing needing restrictions on the likelihood of the NHS being overwhelmed surely we need to increase NHS capacity on a permanent basis as it always struggles in the winter with just flu so surely it will be overwhelmed every winter from now on with both flu and covid?

I know this is never going to actually happen as the funding won't be given and we don't have enough doctors and nurses as it is so surely we'll be facing restrictions every from now on? What the level of restrictions will be, who knows, but this is my logic, unless I've completely missed something?

Amboseli · 23/08/2021 11:25

*every winter

Whatever9999 · 23/08/2021 11:25

@RoseStar

Sorry I’m late to catch up, battery ran out.

@Peteycat I’m sorry you’ve had a difficult experience as someone who is exempt from mask wearing. However, I’m not sorry that your bad experience does not trump the evidence that they can work when used well.

The policy solution to this is to educate people on how to use masks properly, and on tolerance to the circumstances of others that might mean they feel differently. Not to ban them as a public health measure altogether because a minority don’t like them.

I’m not budging on this, masks are widely accepted in other cultures (as they are in various professions) with no detrimental social effects on children, and certainly not on dogs (I think you lost us all on that one). As for other groups eg visually impaired or deaf, why is it not ok for someone to remove mask accordingly? I have family members with the impairments you mention (see another post of mine on caring) and they have absolutely NO problem with asking someone to remove their mask. So please, stop using groups of whom you are not a part to boost your own argument and afford them the respect with which a everyone should be considered in these discussions… never about us without us. The majority of the people who fall into these categories also have other risk factors for covid (age being the common risk factor), and on balance, prefer mask wearing over increasing the chances that they are exposed to them. There are other, younger groups of course, but public health is quite simply, rightly or wrongly, a study of numbers, and someone has to be in the minority.

The question is, does the detriment to the minority sufficiently outweigh the benefit to the majority (without modest interventions such as exemptions and behavioural chances) for the intervention to be considered ineffective?

The answer here is quite clearly, no.

Your relatives may not have issues with asking people to remove masks, but many do. Believe me, I know. I have asd and sensory processing disorder, and as well.as the sensory issues causing issues when I try and wear a mask, they also cause issues when other people wear them. I simply cannot filter a muffled voice out from background noise..but also cannot make myself ask someone to remove it. While masks were mandatory I didn't receive massive amounts of abuse(apart from.on here, where apparently I wasn't trying hard enough), but still got the glares, tuts and muttered comments. Plus the one good thing about having a hidden disability is that it's hidden, being forced to wear a lanyard means it's not hidden. Then there's the fact that the lanyard (which I wore previous to Covid in situations where I need the understanding from staff to prevent my fight or flight response kicking in) have now been devalued.
TheReluctantPhoenix · 23/08/2021 14:09

@rosestar,

No. We have moved on. This was the case before we knew anything else about Covid, and because we had no other indicators by which to measure its impact. Now the focus should be on mitigating the dangers of Covid, which if done correctly, will then mitigate pressure on clinical resources. I repeat my earlier comment - Covid is a public health crisis, not a staffing crisis. The objective is to stop people getting so severely ill that they need hospital treatment in the first place, not to make sure there enough hospital beds for everyone who gets severely ill.

We always had plenty of other indicators to measure its impact, deaths, length of infection, number of people off work etc. When pandemics start, and you have no vaccinations and limited treatments, of course it is all about reducing spread, which is mainly about reducing contact, but also about mask wearing and social distancing.

Clearly, in tandem with all the above, producing a vaccine and improving treatments is also going on. Now we have the vaccine and treatments have improved.

Covid is, for us, both a public health crisis and a staffing crisis. I am not sure that you can easily separate the two, anyway, as they are so interlinked.

But, as I have maintained all along, if the hospital system does become overwhelmed the impact explodes, and overtakes everything else.

We are right now at what appears to be a point of inflexion. Can we now 'manage' COVID as an endemic illness, or will we still need to use our toolkit of pandemic measures going forwards? That remains unclear and will do so until mid autumn.

it doesn’t work like this. R is a population average which gives you a broad indication of how fast the disease is spreading, NOT what the outcomes are going to be. Rates of long Covid, deaths etc vary significantly among different social groups, ages etc. So whilst the R number is a leading indicator of hospitalisation, complications and deaths (ie it tells you what to expect), it is not an absolute predictor / causal indicator of outcomes. You cannot infer the r number between social groups because that’s simply not how the virus spreads at population level. r cannot tell you whether the virus is spreading among at risk groups or otherwise, that has to be inferred from other information we have, specifically case rates among population groups (which are not equivalent to r).

Yes, the more granularity of data you have, the better. However, sometimes one group leads another, so you cannot ignore it. For instance, if we have a massive outbreak amongst school children, this will be a forward indicator of increased cases in adults aged 30-60 (plus some older grandparents).

No. This is my point. At the beginning we had no other choice or information. Now we do, so we manage impact first, hospitals will follow. There is no other illness in existence for which we manage hospital resources as a priority over patient outcomes (although I’m not a medical doctor, so happy to be corrected by someone who is in this case).

Every pandemic plan, and there are lots I can link to (CDC, WHO etc), manage hospital resources as a priority. Of course, if you feel that we have gone beyond this point, then that will change. However, hospitals cannot 'follow' as we cannot magically recruit doctors. They are currently the limiting factor.

user1497207191 · 23/08/2021 14:27

@Amboseli

HRFT but I think we absolutely have to accept a certain level of covid deaths every year. We accept flu deaths so why not covid as well?

The only issue as I see it is if we're basing needing restrictions on the likelihood of the NHS being overwhelmed surely we need to increase NHS capacity on a permanent basis as it always struggles in the winter with just flu so surely it will be overwhelmed every winter from now on with both flu and covid?

I know this is never going to actually happen as the funding won't be given and we don't have enough doctors and nurses as it is so surely we'll be facing restrictions every from now on? What the level of restrictions will be, who knows, but this is my logic, unless I've completely missed something?

I think we may have to accept that the NHS cannot treat all covid patients and accept some won't receive the treatment they need. We need the NHS to get back to providing healthcare for everyone else, i.e. cancer victims, operations, accidents, etc.

In "normal" times, some people with flu don't get the ICU treatment they need if the ICU beds are already in use for other people with other health needs. It really is the luck of the draw whether your 90 year grannie with flu gets an ICU bed with good chance of recovery, or left languishing on a normal ward with oxygen and left to live or die. That's been the reality for a couple of decades or more. It's certainly what happened with my FIL - they said if there'd been an available ICU bed, he'd have been moved there, but there wasn't, so he was left on the ward.

We can't have the NHS shutting down to all other ailments, conditions, etc., just so people with covid can be prioritised over everyone else.

Amboseli · 23/08/2021 14:48

@user1497207191 yes I agree, the NHS needs to stop prioritising covid cases. And at some point we need to stop publishing daily infections and deaths or if we do we also need to publish similar data for other illnesses such as flu, cancer, heart disease.

3asAbird · 23/08/2021 14:50

But covid is a preventable illness using other mitigation not just vaccines.
So plan us let covid rip.
Then when people ill with covid don't treat them?

user1497207191 · 23/08/2021 14:53

@3asAbird

But covid is a preventable illness using other mitigation not just vaccines. So plan us let covid rip. Then when people ill with covid don't treat them?
People with flu and other conditions don't get treatment in "normal" times if they're out of luck with the post-code lottery of the NHS. For some people, cancer is diagnosed too late, or they don't get operated on quickly enough due to NHS foul ups, waiting lists, etc.

The NHS simply can't treat everyone for everything. It's never been able to and will never be able to. It's all about treating as many as possible, that's it. Whether it's covid, cancer, flu, ingrown toe nails, or anything else. It really is the luck of the draw as to whether you get diagnosed quickly enough and then treated quickly enough.

Amboseli · 23/08/2021 15:26

@3asAbird, how would you feel if you or your loved ones were unable to access treatment eg for late stage cancer because wards were full of covid patients?

People don't necessarily always get the treatment they need for many other illnesses.

At the moment covid is not preventable and is unlikely to ever be. So we have to live with it and accept that there will be a certain number of deaths every year. There literally are no other options.

3asAbird · 23/08/2021 15:42

[quote Amboseli]@3asAbird, how would you feel if you or your loved ones were unable to access treatment eg for late stage cancer because wards were full of covid patients?

People don't necessarily always get the treatment they need for many other illnesses.

At the moment covid is not preventable and is unlikely to ever be. So we have to live with it and accept that there will be a certain number of deaths every year. There literally are no other options.[/quote]
I would be gutted but don't see why has be choice.
If we had not got rid of every restriction
Vaccinated terns
Imported school ventilation then we could kept infection low and NHS not overwhelmed so it doesn't have make this choice.
There's cost to everything we do.
Kids getting ill and hospitalised because they not been Vaccinated.
Teachers working in risky unsafe environment.
Many getting long covid therefore out of work and on benefits and ongoing strain on the NHS.

Amboseli · 23/08/2021 16:02

@3asAbird in an ideal world we wouldn't have to make these difficult choices but with a limit to NHS funding doctors have always had to do this.

I agree that more can and should be done in schools in particular to minimise the spread but with someone like Gavin Williamson in charge that's very wishful thinking.

Peteycat · 23/08/2021 16:03

Since when have kids been getting ill and hospitalised from covid 3asabird??

Peteycat · 23/08/2021 16:10

Whatever9999 I'm truly sorry that you had those experiences. Honestly it's so horrible to hear it over and over again from people.

So RoseStar, to you I'm saying yes I afford them the respect they deserve always. Ill always speak for anyone or any animal that needs a voice.

lannistunut · 23/08/2021 17:20

Of course a small number of children are being hospitalised.

There are as many children being admitted now as in January 2021, because they remain unvaccinated with high circulating cases.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/hospitals#hospital-admissions-by-age

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