Will this level of cases now just be acceptable?

[Tuba437]

Just having a think to myself. We're now at around 30k cases a day in general. The 7 day average daily deaths is about 89 (this was for around 45-50k cases a day). We can assume that I a month or so deaths will be at around 60 a day.

Over a year that works out at about 21k worth of deaths. Will this just be the acceptable number. We know the vaccine doesn't stop the spread so I highly doubt were ever just going to get down to sub 5k cases a day again.

21k is considered a very mild flu death rate for the year. We have a new virus around now so more deaths a year are going to be a thing whether we like it or not.

I also think red list countries should only be for countries with worrying variants. If I don't have to isolate if my wife tests positive (just daily testing) then why on earth would I have to spend 1500 on a government hotel to quarantine as I've been to a country with a lower covid rate than us?

Sorry about the rant.

But they will "impose" (whatever that means) their personal judgments won't they, if they think that you've under assessed, or chosen to ignore, the risk that you pose to them? I mean, surely that is obvious?

That's not what I meant.

I don't care if an individual on MN thinks a certain behaviour is 'sensible'. I do care if they want their subjective idea of 'sensible' to be legally mandated.

@Peteycat

You are dishonest, because you say oh just masks, ohh actually and social distancing. Well I'm afraid most people have had enough now so maybe get some ear plugs.

Someone asked specifically about social distancing.

And yes, informally, of course they are both a good idea if we want to keep infection down. A big If. Clearly, some people aren't so bothered.

Not compulsory, though, so you are fine to ignore both, if that's your thing, or if you have some disability that means you can't wear a mask.

* Those who make different choices aren't caring and kind like us.

your interpretation, I didn't say that.*

You pretty much did.

*People who "want less infection to be circulating" will continue to do these things.

People who "don't think this would affect them much and don't care about infecting others" will be less bothered?*

Trying to back out of it is more of the dishonesty I referred to above.

@IcedPurple

But they will "impose" (whatever that means) their personal judgments won't they, if they think that you've under assessed, or chosen to ignore, the risk that you pose to them? I mean, surely that is obvious?

That's not what I meant.

I don't care if an individual on MN thinks a certain behaviour is 'sensible'. I do care if they want their subjective idea of 'sensible' to be legally mandated.

none of this will be legally mandated unless infection levels get so high in the winter that we get into trouble again

Presumably it's in all our interests to avoid this?

@IcedPurple

* Those who make different choices aren't caring and kind like us.

your interpretation, I didn't say that.*

You pretty much did.

*People who "want less infection to be circulating" will continue to do these things.

People who "don't think this would affect them much and don't care about infecting others" will be less bothered?*

Trying to back out of it is more of the dishonesty I referred to above.

I didn't say that though.

not backing out.

You really shouldn't make stuff up.

We have speed limits, red lights, do not allow people to drink drive, and force them to maintain their cars and their cars to take a test every single year.

And with all that, there are traffic accidents all the time.

Not to mention that driving is a major cause of pollution, which causes severe illness to thousands of people.

So yes, every time you step into a car you are choosing to put others at risk.

@MarshaBradyo focusing on theatres again! What about places where people have to go? Do you imagine that everyone on the bus/in the shops is equally comfortable with the risk? And if not, can you not see that some element of judgment is inevitable? If you were CEV and sat on the bus next to someone with no mask, wouldn't you allow yourself a negative thought or two? I am sure that I would.

I find it baffling that people are more concerned about their behaviour being judged or criticised than about the actual risks they pose.

We have speed limits, red lights, do not allow people to drink drive, and force them to maintain their cars and their cars to take a test every single year.

And there’s far, far more we could do, up to and including banning cars from the road.

We don’t.

People potentially endanger others by driving all of the time.

I didn’t say public transport for a reason Crying

We still have masks on pt here in London and the shops I go in to.

If people want to judge those that don’t so be it.

But many are wearing them as per guidance.

I can’t think of anything I do that can be judged - except on here with the ludicrous Covid lout term etc.

I’ve managed to do loads over summer too - all within guidelines.

If others are doing the same then they’ve chosen it too. If masks are needed I’ll use one.

So the approach to a new illness that is likely to overwhelm services is different to the approach to an older chronic illness where the situation is more stable (that is also true for an individual person).

We are reaching a level with covid that means it’s a lot less likely to overwhelm services, due to vaccination.

Services will also adapt to cope with covid.

I honestly cannot fathom some of the thinking on this thread, which seems to be pull out all the stops to minimise covid deaths, but don’t even spend 2 minutes thinking about measures that could prevent other deaths.

It’s very strange.

@herecomesthsun

Why were you happy to eat out, gazebo or no gazebo, knowing that the people making your food for you were still producing it indoors in a busy restaurant kitchen?

Are you suggesting we shut down all of catering completely?

That seems a bit inconsistent, my friend.

No, I’m not saying that at all. Where did you get that?

Catering should be open. Some people won’t want to go out to eat, some people will want to go out to eat but only outdoors, some will be happy to eat indoors, some will eat indoors and then go on to a nightclub afterwards. All these people are balancing the risk of spreading infection or getting infected against the benefit of doing what they want to do, just like you are.

@TheKeatingFive

So the approach to a new illness that is likely to overwhelm services is different to the approach to an older chronic illness where the situation is more stable (that is also true for an individual person).

We are reaching a level with covid that means it’s a lot less likely to overwhelm services, due to vaccination.

Services will also adapt to cope with covid.

I honestly cannot fathom some of the thinking on this thread, which seems to be pull out all the stops to minimise covid deaths, but don’t even spend 2 minutes thinking about measures that could prevent other deaths.

It’s very strange.

Read some Public Health literature, maybe you could fathom it more?

@GoldenOmber Catering should be open. Some people won’t want to go out to eat, some people will want to go out to eat but only outdoors, some will be happy to eat indoors, some will eat indoors and then go on to a nightclub afterwards. All these people are balancing the risk of spreading infection or getting infected against the benefit of doing what they want to do, just like you are.

You're missing the point about the people who don't "have the choice", such as the staff working in the restaurant/nightclub and engaged in all the anciliary services required, i.e. logistics, support, admin, etc.

Read some Public Health literature, maybe you could fathom it more

You’re just dodging the point now.

I absolutely accept that a different approach was required in the eye of the storm, last spring. But now, when covid is endemic, the distinction you’re trying to make makes little sense.

So without dodging questions, trying to get off on technicalities with regards to public health, answer me this … what justification is there for taking extreme measures to minimise covid deaths, but not cancer ones?

You're missing the point about the people who don't "have the choice", such as the staff working in the restaurant/nightclub and engaged in all the anciliary services required, i.e. logistics, support, admin, etc.

Right, so you would prefer their entire industries be shut down to take away all covid risk? Or not?

People don't have the choice. We are dangerously sliding into totalitarianism( think that's a word). I don't like it one bit. We are free to do what we want (within reason obviously), but it's easy for people to judge, brandish name call etc when they are comfortable.

Some people are literally on the bread line right now and imposing more sanctions, because that's what they are, will negatively affect those working in low paid jobs, single parents etc etc.

If you want sanctions and rules, maybe start your own village or government because I'm not interested at all in your agenda. Most people aren't either.

Go and speak to a social worker right now, get their perspective on this situation. Believe me it's not nice hearing the reality of the ramifications of lockdown.

I've read the outlay for schools going back in September and the government aren't even agreeing with you anymore. Does that not tell you something?

@GoldenOmber

You're missing the point about the people who don't "have the choice", such as the staff working in the restaurant/nightclub and engaged in all the anciliary services required, i.e. logistics, support, admin, etc.

Right, so you would prefer their entire industries be shut down to take away all covid risk? Or not?

No, the opposite, I want everything back open to protect jobs and businesses. My point was that some people don't have the choice, so there needs to be support/protection for the vulnerable in some way. Your post suggested that it was only the "customers" who mattered and that if they chose to go gung-ho and do things, that was fine. I was merely pointing out that we don't live in a vacuum and that what we do WILL affect others, and we can't forget that.

Your post suggested that it was only the "customers" who mattered and that if they chose to go gung-ho and do things, that was fine.

No, it didn’t.

I was responding to a PP who enjoyed eating out but only wanted to eat her own meal outdoors in a gazebo. Fine. What’s not fine, though, is to say that this is the choice of someone sensible who cares about covid and reducing infections, whereas people who are eating indoors don’t care about reducing infections. If all you cared about was reducing infections you wouldn’t be eating out at all, gazebo or no gazebo.

Exactly GoldenOmber. It's judgmental and horrible to think that way of people literally just living their lives.

So without dodging questions, trying to get off on technicalities with regards to public health, answer me this … what justification is there for taking extreme measures to minimise covid deaths, but not cancer ones?

@TheKeatingFive The last I heard, cancer doesn't spread through the air, grow exponentially, have the potential to kill within a week or two, and shut down the entire globe? (And cancer is not one homogeneous disease, but hundreds of diseases, and treatment protocols are established for most of them. Research into cancer treatment is usually well-funded.)

@GoldenOmber

Your post suggested that it was only the "customers" who mattered and that if they chose to go gung-ho and do things, that was fine.

No, it didn’t.

I was responding to a PP who enjoyed eating out but only wanted to eat her own meal outdoors in a gazebo. Fine. What’s not fine, though, is to say that this is the choice of someone sensible who cares about covid and reducing infections, whereas people who are eating indoors don’t care about reducing infections. If all you cared about was reducing infections you wouldn’t be eating out at all, gazebo or no gazebo.

Well let's for now put on one side the (probably non-existent) category of people who care about nothing except reducing infections.

Do you think that the person in the gazebo cares more about reducing transmission than the person eating indoors?

No the above question. I think personally that person eating outdoors is virtue signalling and struggling to connect with reality.

Cos I reckon she still sends her kids to school.