More deaths in the vaccinated ?

[TulipVictory]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but there are more deaths in the vaccinated?

Am I missing something or is this perhaps as it's the older population?

Official link:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/1009243/TechnicallBriefing20.pdf

Page 18

@Wilkolampshade

Well if 100% of people are vaccinated that's where 100% of the deaths will be...

Yep. Can't believe that people still don't get it

Majority of COVID deaths in the us are in the over 50s (particularly over 65s)

data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9bhg-hcku

As you can see from the link in my pp, vaccine uptake in those groups is much lower than in the U.K. There was a reason why the JCVI prioritised the older groups - they are at much higher risk of hospitalisation/death.

The CDC say it's becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Data from other countries including Israel and Norway suggest the same thing. Pfizer and Moderna seem to offer strong protection against hospitalisation and death.

Btw, when it comes to US Covid deaths, it's not confined to elderly.

This tragic case is just one of many young people dying with Covid in the US.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/florida-mother-covid-dies-pregnancy-birth-b1900318.html

No, it’s not confined to the elderly but, as you can see from my last link, the vast majority of deaths are not in the young.

What proportion of US are unvaccinated?

As this will skew percentage again to ours.

From what I have heard on here from ICU posters it is a small amount of frail / elderly and rest unvaccinated. The vaccines are holding up here.

It's really very simple..

In other countries, deaths are almost all in unvaccinated people. Regardless of age or underlying condition.

Why then is it different in the UK?

And, why not release the data re the UK fully vaccinated deaths? Which vaccine did they have?

Or is the UK including partially vaccinated - when they talk of vaccinated deaths? That would explain things. One jab (unless Johnson and Johnson) isn't good enough protection.

It would be very easy to release a vaccine breakdown for the fully vaccinated deaths. Which vaccine.

If there's nothing in it, even more reason to release the data. That would reassure people - particularly the vaccine hesitant.

It's not just the US. In Norway, for example. Deaths are mostly in the unvaccinated.

From what I have heard on here from ICU posters it is a small amount of frail / elderly

We need actual data. Not anecdotes (that could be made up) by anonymous randoms on an internet forum.

Data from various other countries shows it's mainly the unvaccinated who are hospitalised and dying. Presumably it's similar for the UK. If not, why not? Perhaps vaccine type, or perhaps vaccine immunity fading.

It does appear (from Israeli reports) that protection might wane after a certain amount of time. And therefore the elderly AND vulnerable might need booster jabs. Which is fortunately something we're preparing for. Israel has already started boosters. So has USA. Germany and France plan to start their booster programmes in autumn.

@Tealightsandd

I think those unvaccinated deaths are still mainly in the elderly. The vaccine uptake in the elderly is lower in the US than here.

Nope. It's more by state than age in the US. Both re vaccination uptake, and unvaccinated deaths. Is one vaccine type less effective than another at preventing deaths?

Data from USA (and Israel and Norway) is majority of deaths (whatever age) are in the unvaccinated. Fully vaccinated are getting breakthrough infection but rarely needing hospital.

I think it would be helpful to have a vaccine breakdown (AZ, Pfizer, Moderna) for the UK fully vaccinated deaths.

Non peer reviewed but the latest data from AZ Oxford analysed delta infected in the double vaccinated and found no deaths and limited serious disease.

www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2021/covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-effective-against-delta-indian-variant.html

That report, although two months out of date, indicates good news re AZ. (Were there many Delta deaths between April and June?).

Definitely data from various sources around the world indicate that, even if one vaccine type isn't as effective as others, all are better than being unvaccinated. There might be a need for boosters for some people, that's all.

I think AZ were working on a booster for newer strains, like Beta?

From the summary:

PCR cycle threshold (Ct) values from routinely undertaken tests in England show that Ct values (and by inference viral load) are similar between individuals who are unvaccinated and vaccinated.

If the viral load is the same (median of 17.8 vs. 18) then that infers the vaccine is doing diddly squat. However on page 35, it does state:

This means that whilst vaccination may reduce an individual’s overall risk of becoming infected, once they are infected there is limited difference in viral load (and Ct values) between those who are vaccinated and unvaccinated. Given they have similar Ct values, this suggests limited difference in infectiousness.

So.. that's something at least. That said, they should publish this in the news or something so vaccinated people know to wear a mask regardless.

Also, I have to admit I had no idea there were FOUR variants of concern and an additional 10 under investigation.

@Mandela34

The vaccinated are the ones spreading it . My mate has got covid atm, she's had both jabs , I've been with her , im not vaccinated, I've been tested an I don't hav covid . Point proven 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

Is this serious?

@Tealightsandd

That report, although two months out of date, indicates good news re AZ. (Were there many Delta deaths between April and June?).

Definitely data from various sources around the world indicate that, even if one vaccine type isn't as effective as others, all are better than being unvaccinated. There might be a need for boosters for some people, that's all.

I think AZ were working on a booster for newer strains, like Beta?

There was a Canadian report out about the same time as the one from AZ regarding the effectiveness of their AZ equivalent with the Beta strain. Similar findings. Not so effective in preventing disease (I think only 50/50) but very effective at preventing serious disease and death.

I'll try and find the link for the Canadian report.

Cfr in 75 plus was 15 percent. Vaccine efficacy against death reduced by 90 percent. 1.5 percent of over 75 is still a big number. Uk pop over 75 is 5.4 Million = 81,000.

The vaccine doesn't prevent the virus getting into your nose and throat. It works by preparing your body to fight the virus fast and furious as soon as you encounter it. Before your defences overcome it you will have viable virus in your nose/throat and for a while after you will have viral particles that are detectable but not viable in your nose and/or throat.

If you are taken into hospital with a fatal condition and, before your demise and unsurprisingly as you will be now be in close contact with a lot of people, you pick up some Covid RNA in your throat, you will test positive. If you then die of your original condition you will be counted in the Covid deaths figures.

Around 1400 people die every day in the UK. Most of them older and many will have gone into hospital before they die. So there will be a good number of 'deaths in the vaccinated.'

And, of course, the vaccine will not protect absolutely everyone - some people will not have enough immunity to fight the virus despite vaccination - so there will be a certain number who do, indeed, succomb to Covid despite vaccination.

@Mandela34

The vaccinated are the ones spreading it . My mate has got covid atm, she's had both jabs , I've been with her , im not vaccinated, I've been tested an I don't hav covid . Point proven 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

You really should submit this to the BMJ rather than hiring such important data in an obscure post on MN.

*hiding

I posted the same link last month and got the same replies that it was the older people that had died earlier on in the year.
That may be true but it does still concern me because as the end of the day, it is still more vaccinated than unvaccinated that are dying.

"I mean, the point you seem to be proving there is that the vaccinated are NOT spreading it, since you haven't caught it from her?"

This made me laugh, spot on! @Anothermuddywalk

it is still more vaccinated than unvaccinated that are dying

More people with a driving licence crash their cars than people without a driving licence. What does that tell you?

It’s different in the UK to US because of how we rolled out our vaccines. We have from the start done it in a strict group order done predominantly by age. So all over 50s were double jabbed before moving onto the under 50s. The numbers vaccinated in these are as high in some groups as 95%
The US may have a similar number overall vaccinated but it’s age make up is significantly different to ours. 70% of over 65s are. That is a huge number who aren’t and they are the age most affected.
With those figures it’s easy to see how the US picture varies significantly from ours
Then with ours the fatality rate in the over 50s and vaccinated is 0.03% a huge decrease on previous waves for that age range
Flu is the same the vast majority of deaths are in the vaccinated for the same reason