Why is not having the vaccine selfish

[chorizoTapas]

If not getting the vaccine only means you're putting yourself at risk why is it considered selfish and why are some people choosing to not be around their own family members who are unvaccinated? As most people have now had the vaccine hopefully the hospitals won't become overwhelmed... even with the few people that won't have the jab.

I am double jabbed but my brother is refusing to have his. Is he selfish? And if so why?

It is selfish not to have the vaccine, yes.
But then so is having children or flying or eating meat.
Our society is pretty much set up to ensure that we, the citizens of this country, do better than the citizens of developing countries.
Most don’t give it a thought. Or do little about it if they do.

I work with pregnant women, many of them haven't had the vaccine. Are they selfish twats too?

@Steakandcheeseplease

I work with pregnant women, many of them haven't had the vaccine. Are they selfish twats too?

Much moreso for having a child than for not being vaccinated.

@MurielSpriggs and yet you're on a parenting website. Go figure..

@Moonface123

No it is definitely not selfish.
Some people actually trust and have faith in their own immune system.
The vulnerable obviously need it.
There are two factors at work here, the fearful and the fearless, and in my opinion the fearful team are by far the worst for trying to shame people who don't think

Funnily enough I know two people in my life who trust their immune systems and pop high quality vitamins daily.
Interestingly they are the ones who tried without success to bully me into not having a vaccine. I was actually told that my kids would be orphans in two years. I had to cut ties for my own mental health.

Of course having children is selfish.
The last thing the world needs is more people.
However, the majority of us side step this undeniable fact.

It seems there is a very set version of what selfish looks like for self important middle class people.

@HelloMissus

Of course having children is selfish. The last thing the world needs is more people. However, the majority of us side step this undeniable fact.

It seems there is a very set version of what selfish looks like for self important middle class people.

Have you got kids @HelloMissus?

Have you got kids @HelloMissus?

Why does that matter!

@MurielSpriggs

Have you got kids *@HelloMissus*?

Why does that matter!

Because if they do, then it’s a little hypocritical, given their opinion.

On a tangent, but I used to work with some one who banged on and on about over population, how it was selfish to have children given this and climate change.

She had four children. But that was okay as they were all very bright and she was going to give them the opportunity to become doctors or scientists and they would tackle the worlds problems

I love me a good hypocrite.

Because if they do, then it’s a little hypocritical, given their opinion.

I do loads of things which I know full well are selfish! Can anyone really say they are a paragon of selflessness?

I think the greater problem is arriving at the conclusion that having kids is not selfish simply because you've done it, rather than actually thinking about it.

As it’s being picked apart anyway both sides have elements of selfishness and fear for various reasons including personal health and the wider societal consequences.

Those who choose to vaccinate are more concerned by covid than they are the vaccine and those who don’t are more concerned by the vaccine than they are covid.

Both sides have a risk/benefit calculation behind them and I do wish that accusations of being scared and/or afraid weren’t bandied about like insults, it’s a perfectly natural response to the circumstances whichever side your decision comes down on.

This: There are two factors at work here, the fearful and the fearless, and in my opinion the fearful team are by far the worst for trying to shame people who don't think, could have been said by either side of the vaccine debate without further context. It’s meaningless tribalism.

PS I'm not answering the question! If I've got kids I'm a hypocrite. If I haven't got kids then that's my true motivation for saying it's selfish, and what am I doing on Mumsnet in the first place!

@MurielSpriggs

PS I'm not answering the question! If I've got kids I'm a hypocrite. If I haven't got kids then that's my true motivation for saying it's selfish, and what am I doing on Mumsnet in the first place!

Yeah thought so

@bumbleymummy

Ok. They’re now offering pregnant women the vaccine and it’s always been offered to immunocompromised people. They were one of the priority groups.

Immunocompromised people were definitely a priority group, but unfortunately, they are the ones for whom vaccine failure is far more likely.

Whilst almost everyone can safely have the vaccine, it tends to work far less well for the vulnerable and elderly. This is why population level immunity is so important.

And yup infection gives you some degree of immunity - but you are far less likely to get reinfected and transmit the virus if you've been vaccinated. (Alongside the fact that not everyone who hasn't been vaccinated has also been previously infected)>

@Arsebucket

On a tangent, but I used to work with some one who banged on and on about over population, how it was selfish to have children given this and climate change.

She had four children. But that was okay as they were all very bright and she was going to give them the opportunity to become doctors or scientists and they would tackle the worlds problems

I love me a good hypocrite.

justifiers will justify

For example: www.nytimes.com/2021/08/06/health/covid-vaccine-reinfection.html

When comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated people with a previous COVID infection, unvaccinated were 2.4x more likely to get COVID again.

Yes I have children.
Three in fact. Which is utterly selfish and I know it.
I also had my vaccinations for entirely selfish reasons.
I own it. And I’m not going about judging others. That would be hypocritical.

My point is that those quick to call others selfish for not doing [insert the thing they decide] rarely look at their own behaviours.

what am I doing on Mumsnet in the first place!

Outside of this discussion - this isn’t an issue usually - I was here for years before I had dd. I’d hate anyone idly lurking to think MN isn’t for everybody.

As an aside it isn’t the birth rate that’s the problem when it comes to overpopulation, it’s life spans (certainly in the west). Not having a vaccine is probably the environmentally friendly choice from that point of view.

@Cornettoninja

what am I doing on Mumsnet in the first place!

Outside of this discussion - this isn’t an issue usually - I was here for years before I had dd. I’d hate anyone idly lurking to think MN isn’t for everybody.

As an aside it isn’t the birth rate that’s the problem when it comes to overpopulation, it’s life spans (certainly in the west). Not having a vaccine is probably the environmentally friendly choice from that point of view.

This is an interesting point.

In countries where lifespans are shorter and mortality is higher, there tends to be overpopulation as families have large numbers of children compared to the standard 2-3.

This led to the much twisted quote from Bill Gates where he explained that in developing countries, one way to slow population growth (not kill everyone off ) is to improve sanitation, healthcare, and access to vaccination.

Bill Gates is kind of right, those things in conjunction with better education, life chances and access to technology seem to naturally result in a lower birth rate. If your family has more chance of survival you will choose to have a smaller one to enjoy other benefits.

At the risk of veering wildly off topic; China is an interesting one. They’ve revoked their one child policy in areas (various reasons I believe) and are now trying to incentivise people to have two children. It’s not popular and the majority have stuck with one child. I would guess that has a lot to do with achievable standards of living. I’m sure Germany had a similar incentive some years ago (this side of 2000).

Not having the vaccine is just stupid.

What person in their right mind would rather take thier chances with a potentially life threatening disease?

twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1423794706388029440

This led to the much twisted quote from Bill Gates where he explained that in developing countries, one way to slow population growth (not kill everyone off grin ) is to improve sanitation, healthcare, and access to vaccination.

And education of women and girls in particular.

“ And yup infection gives you some degree of immunity - but you are far less likely to get reinfected and transmit the virus if you've been vaccinated. (Alongside the fact that not everyone who hasn't been vaccinated has also been previously infected)”

Infection provides durable immunity for up to 10 months (www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/files/2021-06/Duration-of%20protective-immunity-evidence-summary_22-June-2021.pdf) and reinfection rates are low. We have data for a longer period irt reinfection than infection after vaccination.

“What person in their right mind would rather take thier chances with a potentially life threatening disease?”

People who take much higher risks than coronavirus for work/hobbies etc?