Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Can't be vaccinated. What happens to me re work, travel etc?

146 replies

MrsFelicianoLopez · 30/07/2021 16:58

As the title says really. I am not having the Covid vaccine for medical reasons. Does anybody who works in government know exactly what the proposals are for people like me (I live in England) from September when the domestic Covid passports come in (fingers crossed they don't get through parliament!) please?

i.e. can my employer fire me because I'm not vaccinated? (ref. Grant Shapps today saying that he supports businesses who insist their employees have the vaccine). Will I ever be able to travel anywhere again?! If it's relevant, I have Covid antibodies thanks to having Covid earlier this year. I'm paying for private antibody tests on a monthly basis.

I really don't want this to turn into one of those anti-vaxxer threads .... I am not selfish, but I cannot have any of the vaccines as the risk to me is far far greater than catching Covid (from which I recovered just fine). I just want to know if there is actually a plan in place for those who cannot have the vaccine or whether they have been totally overlooked?

I would ask my MP but as he's Tobias Ellwood I doubt he gives a shit.

OP posts:
MareofBeasttown · 31/07/2021 10:03

@DottyHarmer

Agree with pp.

Would you be happy with people travelling to the UK with exemptions from vaccination against diseases we have eradicated or never had here ? And it might not be just a couple of individuals - it could be hundreds of thousands over a year.

This is where individual freedom bumps up against harm to others. By all means refuse the jab, but consequently take any restrictions resulting from this on the chin.

There is always a huge outcry against this. But never the other way around. People with less passport privilege don't have the option to cite medical exemptions or panic attacks for not taking a variety of jabs. They just have to take them.
MrsSkylerWhite · 31/07/2021 10:05

There will have to be a medical exemption (though with much stricter criteria than the mask wearing exemption)

Canigooutyet · 31/07/2021 10:06

www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-the-green-book-chapter-14a

Scroll to page 21 and it explains a bit about allergy and when you cannot have it due to previous reactions to go vaccines.

Canigooutyet · 31/07/2021 10:14

Posted too soon. Reading this I am surprised that this is being ignored and those who have had a vaccine allergy are still given it.

For those who are unaware the green book is for medical practitioners. I'm not a medical professional I'm just in the same position as op. If the passport is introduced either my gp or consultants will be able to add the exemption, we've had lengthy discussions about this.

CrunchyCarrot · 31/07/2021 10:33

I absolutely sympathise with you, OP. I feel quite anxious reading this thread. My only possible 'get-out' clause would be my needle phobia. Have no idea whether this would grant me an exemption. I am also worried on other health grounds but doubt my GP would exempt me on those, so the phobia is the only one left. Like you, I have had Covid already.

I can only hope those of us who genuinely need exemptions can get them.

BungleandGeorge · 31/07/2021 10:45

Unfortunately, at this stage I don’t think anyone can give you an answer that isn’t based on opinion

DottyHarmer · 31/07/2021 10:48

Needle phobia is imo not a valid exemption. Exemption should be on the grounds that the vaccine can kill or seriously harm you. Neither is “I’m worried about the vaccine” grounds for exemption.

Of course, if you don’t want the vaccine, that is indeed personal choice. But then don’t expect to be able to fly round the world. Some people need to think what if everybody did this? or, from a more selfish point of view, Would I be happy to sit next to someone on a long-haul flight with yellow fever who wouldn’t vaccinate because they had a needle phobia?

Motorina · 31/07/2021 10:50

@CrunchyCarrot

I absolutely sympathise with you, OP. I feel quite anxious reading this thread. My only possible 'get-out' clause would be my needle phobia. Have no idea whether this would grant me an exemption. I am also worried on other health grounds but doubt my GP would exempt me on those, so the phobia is the only one left. Like you, I have had Covid already.

I can only hope those of us who genuinely need exemptions can get them.

Based on the care home legislation, it is unlikely to. THe language in that is "that for clinical reasons [they] should not be vaccinated with any authorised vaccine".

I think medical opinion would be that those with phobias should be vaccinated, but that the phobia poses a barrier to them actually being so. Which I appreciate is scant comfort for those in that position.

Cornettoninja · 31/07/2021 11:00

@Canigooutyet thanks for posting that link, it was interesting. I wonder if the sign posting to an allergy specialist is so allergies to the specific ingredients can be highlighted or ruled out? That’d be helpful to some at least.

DumplingsAndStew · 31/07/2021 11:08

@Canigooutyet

www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-the-green-book-chapter-14a

Scroll to page 21 and it explains a bit about allergy and when you cannot have it due to previous reactions to go vaccines.

Definitely worth a read for those medically hesitant.

Have included two charts from that information.

Can't be vaccinated.  What happens to me re work, travel etc?
Can't be vaccinated.  What happens to me re work, travel etc?
MrsBillyNoJagNoMates · 31/07/2021 11:12

MareofBeasttown

"Perhaps British people have not had to do this, but there are polio and meningitis vaccinations required for citizens of many developing countries, and TB tests required to enter the UK. Many international students entering the US from developing countries also have to provide a vast range of vaccination proofs ranging from MMR to DPT, and in some cases get revaccinated to provide recent proof. I know students who have tried to get exemptions from these vaccinations for various reasons, including mental health, but they have been unsuccessful."

I am really sorry but think you got a wrong person
I am not British
I have, however, first hand experience with how people from 'developing countries' are treated by HCP in UK - and it is not pleasant
So I agree with you on that point

MaxNormal · 31/07/2021 11:15

Perhaps British people have not had to do this, but there are polio and meningitis vaccinations required for citizens of many developing countries, and TB tests required to enter the UK

I'm from a country with a very high rate of TB however I entered the UK without any requirement for checks. Many countries do lung screens rather than asking for vaccine proof (that was required when I got residency in a Middle Eastern country) for the simple reason that the BCG vaccine does not provide anything like sterilising immunity from contracting TB.

I do think some people are being very harsh here, by suggesting that the OP risk anaphalaxys and death, or basically shrugging and saying tough shit your choice. I can completely understand why OP turned up at the vaccination centre - there's this awful desperation at present between fear of catastrophic health consequences vs fear of catastrophic life consequences that makes those of us in that position feel utterly desperate.

It's not as simple as saying if your GP says you're officially exempt then fine otherwise it's just you making a choice and you need to suffer the conseqeunces. Medics aren't gods and people, especially with chronic health conditions, often know their own health and bodies best. Just think of how many threads there have been on here of people being completely dismissed and giving appalling medical treatment, for everything from thyroid issues, to childbirth injuries, to being sent home from A&E seriously unwell. You often have to advocate very hard for yourself and to get taken seriously.

And it's utterly mad that someone like the OP, who has had covid and has no reason to be seriously concerned about it, and who has previously had life-threatening adverse side effects from vaccinations, should even be considered as suitable to receive this vaccination. Because if it wasn't this highly politicised vaccine, no medic in their right minds would even suggest never mind attempt to insist on a medical intervention with that poor a risk benefit profile. It would be utterly poor practice, and unethical.

It is a truly horrible time for those of us in this position. I have genuinely sometimes thought oh well at least if I'm dead I won't have to worry about this any more.

Several of the people in my support group, who did chose to get the vaccine, have suffered relapses of their condition and I cannot go through that again. I just can't. And it is hurtful that there are a lot of people that, should my gp and consultant not agree with me (and there might well be tremendous managerial/political pressure not to grant exemptions), would be quite happy to see me, the OP and others like us live diminished, excluded lives on top of what we have already suffered.

I cannot face more months of neurological issues, pain, seizures, tendon breakages. My hasband cannot face more months of not being able to go to work and support us as he then has to care for me. I cannot lose the little life, as dimished as it is from the one I enjoyed previously, that I have worked so hard to build for myself after my old life was blown apart four years ago. Because when that happens, the gp is nowhere. Random people and their opinions online are nowhere.Most friends are nowhere. It's just DH and I in hell and alone.

I might never see my family again because of this. I never asked for any of this.

@MrsFelicianoLopez sorry about the derail. I think unfortunately unless people have lived it, they are generally not going to understand. It just feels so fucking unfair, we go through hell though no fault of our own and now this.

MrsBillyNoJagNoMates · 31/07/2021 11:34

RuleOfCat

Visiting another country is a privilege not a right, after all.

I assume you mean for holiday purposes, right?
As for some of us residence and citizenship are 2 completely different things.
And there are legal matters which need to be attended in both (or all 3) countries.
I wouldn't call that privilege

Cornettoninja · 31/07/2021 11:34

Because if it wasn't this highly politicised vaccine, no medic in their right minds would even suggest never mind attempt to insist on a medical intervention with that poor a risk benefit profile. It would be utterly poor practice, and unethical

@MaxNormal but it’s only currently highly politicised and strongly encouraged because we’re in the middle of a health crisis. This is a temporary state (although we do have to accept that temporary still means a significant amount of time in context) and at some point things will relax and those who remain unvaccinated will be in a better position to properly define their status and iron out any details.

I don’t think it’s realistic to expect every circumstance to be accounted for at this point in time. We need a period of stability for finer details to emerge but in the meantime, if our individual situations don’t work within any given current guideline then we need to either seek support or simply wait.

I don’t know if the OP is particularly concerned about employment or travel but if it’s travel, at the moment the alternatives for a lot of places are isolations and testing and if it’s work she needs to speak to either her manager or occupational health department and start a dialogue about how she can fulfil their requirements unvaccinated.

I’m sure their will be legal test cases in the near future regarding vaccination as a condition of employment but until they happen there’s not a lot to back her up.

Canigooutyet · 31/07/2021 11:34

Thanks for posting the graphs, cannot c&p from the kindle reader app. would think that those who have had allergies to vaccines would be sign posted to someone to ensure its safe for them. But reading pp accounts this doesn't seem to be the case because they have meds on site.

Tbh if I'd been bullied into it, had a reaction as expected, then found the green book I would be putting in complaints.

MareofBeasttown · 31/07/2021 11:39

@MrsBillyNoJagNoMates

MareofBeasttown

"Perhaps British people have not had to do this, but there are polio and meningitis vaccinations required for citizens of many developing countries, and TB tests required to enter the UK. Many international students entering the US from developing countries also have to provide a vast range of vaccination proofs ranging from MMR to DPT, and in some cases get revaccinated to provide recent proof. I know students who have tried to get exemptions from these vaccinations for various reasons, including mental health, but they have been unsuccessful."

I am really sorry but think you got a wrong person
I am not British
I have, however, first hand experience with how people from 'developing countries' are treated by HCP in UK - and it is not pleasant
So I agree with you on that point

This wasn't particularly directed at you, just to say that people of many nationalities have had to do vaccines and tests for years now. I entered the UK only last year and had to do a prolonged and expensive TB test to do this, as well as show BCG vaccination proof. This took 2.5 months because a black spot was detected on my lung, which was non -TB. I don't want to go into how difficult the visa process was ; let me assure you it was incredibly tough and expensive.

I am afraid that I think it is 'fucking unfair' that I have not seen some members of my own family for over 2 years, even though we are all double vaxxed. I didn't ask for this either.

Those who could suffer anaphalyctic shock or other serious medical conditions should of course get an exemption. That is very few people though, and I believe those exemptions should be tightly regulated otherwise everybody will want one.

Cornettoninja · 31/07/2021 11:40

@MrsBillyNoJagNoMates I would personally say that any individual international travel is a privilege. There may be more compelling reasons for one person to be able to travel over another (holiday vs settling an estate) but the ability to cross borders is a privilege granted by both countries that can be withdrawn. The wording in a passport makes it very clear it isn’t actually your property and can be withdrawn at any time the crown deems necessary.

MaxNormal · 31/07/2021 11:41

Cornettoninja I do get the points you're making, and I do think that if they want to maintain restrictions in the more medium to long term they need to get something put in place that clarifies these positions.

What I am finding especially frustrating at present though is that it's clear that the vaccines are wonderful at reducing serious disease - given the high levels of infection of our Delta wave, it's worked brilliantly - but are a lot less good at actually preventing infection altogether. To the point that the US CDC has now waded in. So on that basis, vaccine passports make less sense from a safety perspective.

They do unfortunately make sense as a mechanism to drive up vaccination rates in younger, more reluctant demographics however.

I'm really just posting to try and get the point across that it's difficult for those in that position, yes all one can do is continue to wait but the fear and uncertainty is hard, and some of the lack of sympathy can sting a bit too.

MrsBillyNoJagNoMates · 31/07/2021 11:45

MaxNormal

Sorry you are going through this as well
Your post resonates with me a lot - unless they've gone through it very few people will actually understand.
"(and there might well be tremendous managerial/political pressure not to grant exemptions)"
150% agree with this
Was advised by my GP not to have anymore vaccines in the future. Sadly it didn't make it into my medical notes

MaxNormal · 31/07/2021 11:53

MrsBillyNoJagNoMates and I'm sorry you are too. Sending you all the good energy I can muster!
Navigating the NHS with anything complex is a skill in it's own right really.
Everything crossed for all of us in this situation that things will be clearer and more hopeful in a few months.

Cornettoninja · 31/07/2021 11:55

I do understand that @MaxNormal and it’s just a continuation of all of the other crap this pandemic has thrown up. It’s hard for everyone isn’t it?

I think the length of time involved in vaccinating so many people and waiting for evidence of its impact has been misjudged by many. We’re still doing really well as a country when you think this time last year the possibility of any vaccine was still firmly in ‘possibly one day’ pile.

Whether someone is vaccinated or not everything hinges on the results we see from vaccines over the next few months; if we have covid controlled with the vaccinations we have issued then everyone is in a better position.

My personal feeling is that those who aren’t ever going to get vaccinated aren’t actually going to make that much difference but in the meantime the aim is to encourage the apathetic who need a kick up the bum to get themselves sorted out whilst making sure the hesitant whose concerns can be addressed have the opportunity to do that. Resources are stretched trying to achieve that goal before turning their attention to those who will remain unvaccinated, partly because vaccinations are going to indirectly benefit them too.

MrsBillyNoJagNoMates · 31/07/2021 12:07

@Cornettoninja
MrsBillyNoJagNoMates I would personally say that any individual international travel is a privilege. There may be more compelling reasons for one person to be able to travel over another (holiday vs settling an estate) but the ability to cross borders is a privilege granted by both countries that can be withdrawn. The wording in a passport makes it very clear it isn’t actually your property and can be withdrawn at any time the crown deems necessary.

This is bordering on communist regime though, wouldn't you say?
And I say so as I grew up in one.

but it’s only currently highly politicised and strongly encouraged because we’re in the middle of a health crisis. This is a temporary state (although we do have to accept that temporary still means a significant amount of time in context) and at some point things will relax and those who remain unvaccinated will be in a better position to properly define their status and iron out any details.

Do you actually genuinely think so? As that's not my experience for well over 15 years of living in England. At all.
I was vaccinated and lied to by NHS which just kept saying I had to have it, and mandatory etc on more than one occasion.
I was actually told I was getting a different vaccine to the one I actually got - so call me a bit sceptical if you want

Viviennemary · 31/07/2021 12:12

I hope the Covid passport does get voted through. It will be up to the medical experts to decide who is exempt. If its left to self declaration it will be a fiasco. Like mask wearing.

Cornettoninja · 31/07/2021 12:20

This is bordering on communist regime though, wouldn't you say?

Not really, aside from freedom of movement under the EU it’s a pretty standard set up for pretty much every country. There’s no inherent right to move around globally as you wish for any reason. I say that as the daughter of a man who was stateless his whole life (complicated post-war WW2 Eastern European baby who grew up into a very contrary man!) .

Do you actually genuinely think so

Yes I do. Health is a poor reason for governments to subdue their economic activity and have to add layers of bureaucracy indefinitely. It’s also unlikely that vaccinations will continue to be provided on the scale we’re currently seeing. There are certainly countries that won’t be able to continue to fund it for all except the most at risk once covid infections have stabilised, certainly manufacturing isn’t set up to provide vaccinations globally on an ongoing basis currently. I couldn’t say whether the UK/NHS will be included in that but I suspect that for a lot of people this will be their only vaccination before a change in circumstance or ageing.

I’m sorry about your experience of the NHS and how it has coloured your view; however I have my own experience and it’s not something I recognise.

Canigooutyet · 31/07/2021 12:22

There's no justification for the passport. This was held after a petition was done several months ago.

committees.parliament.uk/committee/327/public-administration-and-constitutional-affairs-committee/news/155788/no-justification-for-covid-passports-say-committee/