No masks after 19th July- despite the scientific consensus for them

[herecomesthsun]

I happened to notice that we had reached 1000 posts on the other thread - so I started a new one .

[quote EmmaOvary]@GreenWillow you seem nice. [/quote]
Play the ball, not the man, eh?

But you crack on.

I do like this, it seems to have replaced "grim" as a Mumsnet favourite!

Bleurgh. This thread is making me feel sick. I'm out.

@Parker231

Civil liberties is another comment which is ridiculous. We haven’t had our liberties restricted. Changes (which no one has liked or enjoyed) have been put in place to try and keep the numbers of Covid cases needing hospital treatment as low as possible.

We clearly have had civil liberties restricted! Visiting friends and family has been criminalised for a start. Many other controls. Art 5 and Art 8 rights have been interfered with. There might be justifications for doing so, but to argue that there are no restrictions is simply bonkers.

Standing in your garden to talk to friends and family at a distance is not a restriction to your all your civil liberties compared to having to be put on a ventilator alone in a hospital.

@Parker231

Standing in your garden to talk to friends and family at a distance is not a restriction to your all your civil liberties compared to having to be put on a ventilator alone in a hospital.

I think we can both agree on that.

Possibly for different reasons - being on a ventilator is not a restriction on your civil liberties at all!

But I don't really think that's the point!

I don't think anyone can seriously claim that civil liberties haven't been severely restricted (and I will be mask wearing inside as CEV DC who will also wear masks).

I also don't think that you can or should trust others to protect you anymore. The risk of civil unrest has been escalating and nobody wants that.

Do what you can to protect yourselves, or don't. It's a choice now, which also has serious consequences for the vulnerable, but it is what we have got to do.

This is a stupid argument. Civil liberties have been restricted. That is a fact. Being on a ventilator is not actually a restriction of civil liberties either. Not even slightly. Something doesn't become a restriction on civil liberties because of being objectively awful and upsetting.

The question isn't whether civil liberties have been and continue to be restricted, it's whether that was and continues to be worthwhile.

My god, you've got kids...

I read on here yesterday that mask wearing has no detrimental effect on the economy, and I’m afraid that I don’t agree. I have no intention of going to the cinema, a museum, a bowling alley, or most recreational activities where I would be indoors and masked for an extended period of time. I just wouldn’t enjoy it at all. It’s not an ideological position, it’s just the discomfort, I get hot and short of breath after about 30 minutes of wearing one.

So as a result, my family and I are not out there spending money in these places. Things will not get back to normal until mask wearing has been stopped. Public transport etc is a different situation, but leisure activities and hospitality places need mask wearing to be lifted before they will be able to get back on their feet.

I am also fed up of wearing one at the school, everyone is outside and I will not be doing so in the new term. I have just moved house and was hoping to get to know some people at the school gates, which has proved to be almost impossible when we are all masked. People just don’t interact at all.

I do understand people are CV and scared, but the reality is that we can’t go on like this forever. How did CV people cope before with threats such as flu? I genuinely don’t know. But society must return to normality.

I'd agree @WineByTheSea.

I do understand people are CV and scared, but the reality is that we can’t go on like this forever. How did CV people cope before with threats such as flu? I genuinely don’t know. But society must return to normality.

The problem is that people who already had anxiety issues, together with people who has authoritarian issues, and people who had interfering and general nosiness issues have had a serendipitous convergence of their issues with the needs of the pandemic. As the needs of the pandemic recede, and the needs of normal life take over they are very unwilling to acknowledge that, and they're not going to relinquish control without a fight!

• I'm not vulnerable, I'm not a cashier and I'm OK in my job, I'm using empathy to think about this and not just my own narrow circumstances.

I went to an athletics comp at the weekend. No masks, no social distancing, people getting back to normal human interaction. It was bloody marvellous. The lockdown lovers and mask police views on this forum thankfully are not reflected in real life.

It’s utter rubbish to say that civil liberties have not been curtailed.
Trials have been delayed extensively. Over a year on some cases.
Which means that people not actually convicted of anything are subject to bail conditions, being held on remand, suspended from work etc
Trials when they have happened have often been by Zoom. Imagine analysing physical evidence by Zoom!
How is this not a huge curtailment of the rule of law?

@sleepwouldbenice

My god, you've got kids...

Nice

@HelloMissus

It’s utter rubbish to say that civil liberties have not been curtailed. Trials have been delayed extensively. Over a year on some cases. Which means that people not actually convicted of anything are subject to bail conditions, being held on remand, suspended from work etc Trials when they have happened have often been by Zoom. Imagine analysing physical evidence by Zoom! How is this not a huge curtailment of the rule of law?

(Probably diplomatic to brush this argument under the carpet at this point, I don't think @Parker231 understood civil liberties.)

Even the London elections were delayed a year. Even arch lockdowners and even this Government in March 2020 said it WAS a big breach of civil liberties - they thought it was worth it (I did not and do not) but it has been a big breach of rights and has caused a lot of lives to be lost for all kinds of reasons not related to covid of course too. It has been a balance throughout.

@MurielSpriggs - I definitely understand civil liberties. Can’t stand those moaners because they had changes to their lives because they couldn’t go on holiday, visit the theme park , go to the pub etc. Total lack of compassion for those who have died or had their live totally changed due to long Covid.

I will continue to wear a mask in public, indoors at least or in busy outdoor areas as the virus is airborne. In past winters I have often regretted the fact that we don't routinely wear masks on public transport etc in winter, as in many Asian countries. Always seemed very sensible to me. Yes, personal choice but in many cases that choice is uninformed and selfish, it's not a great hardship to put a piece of cloth over your mouth and nose for the time you're in a shop/on a bus etc.

[quote Parker231]@MurielSpriggs - I definitely understand civil liberties. Can’t stand those moaners because they had changes to their lives because they couldn’t go on holiday, visit the theme park , go to the pub etc. Total lack of compassion for those who have died or had their live totally changed due to long Covid.[/quote]
My DH has long covid and is back and forth to the doctors and still thinks the restrictions and mask wearing we currently have is disproportionate and is relishing binning his mask.

You can't speak for all those that have been affected and assume they think the same as you.

I'm not vulnerable, I'm not a cashier and I'm OK in my job, I'm using empathy to think about this and not just my own narrow circumstances.

Well, stop. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[quote Parker231]@MurielSpriggs - I definitely understand civil liberties. Can’t stand those moaners because they had changes to their lives because they couldn’t go on holiday, visit the theme park , go to the pub etc. Total lack of compassion for those who have died or had their live totally changed due to long Covid.[/quote]
I definitely understand civil liberties.

My apologies for doubting you, @Parker231, you had me convinced for a while there that you didn't

Reading these threads has begun to feel like playing Bingo – the same “arguments” against continuing to wear a mask come up again and again in the form of pithy “gotcha” sentences that are mostly really just that, and, I do feel, kind of inadvertently highlight the associated lack of no data or critical thought behind them…

Let me get them all out of the way in one go right now. To add a bit of interest, as I’m sure you’re all already familiar with them, I’ve adapted them into fun activities.

Masktivities

Activity 1: Logical fallacies – reflect on why each of the following, in the absence of further evidence or explanation, could be seen as a fairly classic example of fallacious reasoning.

1. There's no proof masks work anyway.
2. Cloth ones don't work as well as surgical ones, so there's no point in wearing either.
3. People wear masks in different ways, so we may as well all stop.
4. Well, there's nothing to stop you wearing a mask; off you go; problem solved!
5. I'm alright, Jack – young, healthy etc. – so I won't be wearing one.
6. I’m double-jabbed, so there’s no real risk of me spreading it.
7. I test regularly, so I don’t need a mask.
8. If you're worried about masks but haven’t had had the vaccine, it's your own fault.
9. I know people who caught it, even though they were wearing a mask.
10. The chance of dying is miniscule, so I won’t be in one!
11. The chance of spreading it is miniscule; why bother?
12. We can all manage our own risk now – just take responsibility for yourself!
13. I’ve seen people faint on the tube.
14. Wearing them increases people’s anxiety about Covid.
15. We can’t go on wearing them forever!
16. If we don’t stop now, we never will.
17. We’ll never be free of Covid, so why keep wearing them?
18. We never used to wear masks, so why are why doing so now?
19. As long as the hospitals aren’t overwhelmed, there’s nothing to justify it.
20. People are dying at similar or greater rates from other things.
21. I’m not responsible for your health – we shouldn’t start to legislate as if I am!

Activity 2: “Bless!” – imagine you’re an agony aunt, and write a letter offering gentle reassurances on each of the below; you may find it useful to put the anxiety expressed in perspective, by comparing it to the fears and experiences of the clinically vulnerable right now.

20. They're a bit uncomfy!
21. I somehow don’t enjoy doing things quite as much in a mask.
22. I've already worn one for ages; it was OK for a year, but now I just can't take it any more!
23. It feels rather dehumanizing.

Activity 3: the Rude – practise your conflict resolution skills by not rising to the bait, while attempting to diffuse the tension this person feels.

24. Neurotic snowflakes.
25. Fussy virtue signallers…
26. Totemic mask-worshippers!
27. Bloody mask police…
28. Unthinking sheep.

Activity 4: Miscellaneous – Try not to be disturbed by the below, smile, and walk away calmly

29. I'd rather my children face a massively increased risk of death than wear a mask.
30. You know, I’ve not been wearing one for a year, and – newsflash – nothing happened!
31. There are people with cancer who haven’t had treatment for ages – so why keep wearing masks?
32. It’s child abuse!
33. Where will this terrifying attack on our freedoms end?
34. It’s against my human rights!
35. I’ll go to the trouble of shopping somewhere else rather than wearing a mask in my local.

Two disclaimers…

1. I know some people have a very good reason indeed not to wear a mask, and I do respect that. I also know some people find them extremely uncomfortable, and it really is an effort for you to wear them in a way I’m fortunate not to experience. The below rather has in mind people at the more extreme end of the anti-mask spectrum – the “Hell no, I’m not wearing one on principle! / I couldn’t care less about the vulnerable!” attitudes in mind. I’d just really, really like those people to think more each time they use flawed reasoning like the below; do they really believe what they’re saying, and if so, why?; tell us more! Which leads me to…

1. I think some of the below could be developed into genuinely thought-provoking discussions, or much more convincing arguments. Eg. the someone fainting on the tube one – it’s truly awful when that happens, so maybe any hypothetical mask mandate should be lifted in certain temperatures; or the “We’ll never be free of Covid!” one – this invites an interesting debate about the pros and cons of keeping masks for now or not, and if not now, then when, and why?; or the mental health one – perhaps they do create a climate of fear, in which case, is this offset by the visible reassurance they offer to others? But very few people defending a total de-mask in these threads seems to be taking any of the below much beyond these scattergun gotchas, and in THIS form, at least, to me, they just don’t hold up; not a single one (hence the linked activities). If you agree, have fun with the activities. If you disagree – why not explain why in more detail, with data/links/suggestions; help others to understand!