Should we be worried about our children?

[Moonme]

I know several families that are having to isolate due to children being in contact with cases at school. It seems like the Government is going for a herd immunity strategy amongst the young. Should we be concerned about this? I know the risk of dying is super low but I’ve seen a few doctors on Twitter (respected UK Drs) saying we shouldn’t be playing fast and loose with a novel virus as we don’t know the long term impacts.
What are your thoughts?

Cautiousness over delta. But it’s looking ok. Hospital admissions were around the same this week compared to last week, despite the increasing case numbers.

Delta.

@PrincessNutNuts yes we have and you always say the same thing but nothing actually concrete that would actually be able to be implemented and stuck to. More some lovely ideals that would be great if they worked and I do agree that a decent test track and trace system would be amazing!

@Hornbill123456789 yes I agree but I think the problem with the 12-15 is it is difficult to get the relative risk when you dont actually have the data for all the risks in front of you. It has been I think a much easier choice for those older (and easier the older you get) because it is both easier as a societal and personal choice.

And I agree the risk of COVID is overall far far more to society than it the vaccine but ethically that is asking an awful lot for the 12-15s to take on. Not only do we not have clear data as to the relative risks of vaccine versus COVID to decide but an awful lot of vaccination is to create as you say for society. The JCVI have also seen the whooping cough debacle as well so will rightly I think be nervy

@HairyToity

I worried about my children getting covid, until the day they had their positive test result. One was asymptomatic, the other sneezed a few times at bedtime.

It's a very mild virus in the majority of cases.

So's Polio.

@bumbleymummy

Is it really dominating our lives though? Yes, cases have rises but hospitalisations and deaths are still low and restrictions are still being eased. I don’t feel like coronavirus is dominating my life at all.

I think this post drastically underestimates the impact

Unfortunately COVID is dominating lives and society, and saying otherwise doesn't make it so. High levels of transmission impact on everyone and it doesn't make a jot of difference if you personally aren't worried about catching it or don't think it's a problem.

[quote Quartz2208]@PrincessNutNuts yes we have and you always say the same thing but nothing actually concrete that would actually be able to be implemented and stuck to. More some lovely ideals that would be great if they worked and I do agree that a decent test track and trace system would be amazing!

@Hornbill123456789 yes I agree but I think the problem with the 12-15 is it is difficult to get the relative risk when you dont actually have the data for all the risks in front of you. It has been I think a much easier choice for those older (and easier the older you get) because it is both easier as a societal and personal choice.

And I agree the risk of COVID is overall far far more to society than it the vaccine but ethically that is asking an awful lot for the 12-15s to take on. Not only do we not have clear data as to the relative risks of vaccine versus COVID to decide but an awful lot of vaccination is to create as you say for society. The JCVI have also seen the whooping cough debacle as well so will rightly I think be nervy[/quote]
We know "a border policy and quarantine that work" and " a test, trace and isolate system that work" do work because they work in the 100 or so countries of the world who handle covid better than the U.K.

They are not airy fairy nice to have type things. They are the bedrock of any effective infectious disease control.

The absence of them is the reason our country has more cases than the entire 27 countries of the European Union right now.

For now with the EU, it is coming and they know it- I think you do have to look at the links between the UK and India to understand why it hit us first.

And I am not saying they arent things other countries have done just that we havent so trying to say that we can somehow do it now is the equilvalent of just hitting your head repeatedly against a brick wall! Given the things we opted out of in the EU its not hard to see why track and trace wouldn't be the easiest thing to fit in with us.

So I think you misunderstand. I am not saying those things are effective ways out of it - just that they are never going to be our way out of it. So doesn't come close to solving the issue we have with schools.

Theoretically you are of course right. Practically and on the ground right now with the mood of the nation I am not sure either would come close to succeeding. And I dont just think unlike you that is all the fault of the government either.

@Quartz2208

“ never going to be our way out of it. ”

What do you think is different about us? Surely it’s easier for us as we’re an island?

But we aren't an Island for a start the United Kingdom isnt just one island!

Because I think an effective track and trace system to work needs the correct information and people sticking to it and given our intense dislike for things such as identity cards I think the problem has been from the start that a percentage of people dont follow the rules. That has grown now. I think the will to follow such a system was weak in the first place and is even weaker now.

Also @PrincessNutNuts how come the graph shows the green line of the European Union being around the cases of France and Germany added together. Given that Spain has had more cases than France and Germany added together that green line should be higher?

Ignore I see it is the average of the 27 added together then!

So's Polio

COVID is not comparable to polio

I do agree with you, especially related to our dislike of things which could be perceived to infringe on our freedoms like identity cards, and that a (significant) percentage won’t follow the rules. But it feels like the government have done it all half heartedly to pander to these people who wouldn’t comply, rather than the majority who would have complied with everything if done properly from the start.

@Watermelon221 completely agree that we are a highly individualistic nation. We do not like being told what to do, we like to question - and having our freedom taken away has been incredibly hard for many. I think the majority have harnessed their collective altruism to an extent - but this is waning now. And the mixed messages and incompetence from the government has not helped at all.
The fact that our death toll has been so high - and the US - I do wonder if it’s down to our rampant individualism, and having to adopt restrictions that were completely unprecedented and unnatural to us.

I agree about the waning.

I feel a bit the same myself, having been compliant all along. It all feels so futile now!

Had a decent track and trace system been tried in the beginning I think you would have had a much better take up but I just cant see anything like it working now. I am not sure what will either - I am pretty sure our high case rises are in part due to a lack of interest in following the rules anymore.

I think the vaccination programme is in part to blame I think having set out we were doing it to protect those who needed protecting most see that (and I am not saying everyone is just that people perceive it) and think well it is now up to me to chose my personal risk

THe US has already moved there.

The fact that our death toll has been so high - and the US - I do wonder if it’s down to our rampant individualism, and having to adopt restrictions that were completely unprecedented and unnatural to us.
I think this massively lets the government off the hook. One of our key problems all through this has been the fact that we have a PM who is a ditherer. In the first wave, a lockdown just one week earlier would have saved lots of lives. When we actually did lock down, compliance was IME very high indeed during the first wave.

In September when it had become apparent cases were on the rise again, Johnson ignored scientists' recommendations for a short "circuit breaker" lockdown. Upshot: case numbers got completely out of hand and we ended up with the worst of both worlds: far more deaths and a lockdown which had to be much longer to bring case numbers down.

Roll on to discovery of the Delta variant. Johnson's dithering over adding India to the red list meant that cases took off here earlier during a period when the roll out of the vaccination programme meant that every week of holding back the spread of the Delta variant really counted.

Roll on to discovery of the Delta variant. Johnson's dithering over adding India to the red list meant that cases took off here earlier during a period when the roll out of the vaccination programme meant that every week of holding back the spread of the Delta variant really counted.

That man has so much to answer for

In September when it had become apparent cases were on the rise again, Johnson ignored scientists' recommendations for a short "circuit breaker" lockdown

Johnson should have done more earlier, but I doubt a short 'circuit breaker' lockdown would have helped at all. We had them in Scotland and in Wales and still ended up in the months-long New Year lockdown along with England. In central Scotland our 'circuit breaker' started off as a 16-day break in the autumn and ended up lasting until April!

@Quartz2208

@SilverGlitterBaubles

Roll on to discovery of the Delta variant. Johnson's dithering over adding India to the red list meant that cases took off here earlier during a period when the roll out of the vaccination programme meant that every week of holding back the spread of the Delta variant really counted.

That man has so much to answer for

Yes but remember that those who returned were supposed to quarantine in their own homes which frankly can’t have happened

@LilyPond2 oh I wholeheartedly agree what he has dithered. And we should have lockdowned earlier/closed borders. But how much responsibility should we take for being an individualistic society that chose an individualistic government to be in power and to represent us?

The government is us; we are the government, you and I.
Theodore Roosevelt

And does he dither? Or is he actually quite in favour of this survival of the fittest/let the bodies pile high agenda?

[quote PrincessNutNuts]@Quartz2208 [/quote]
What are you trying to say with that? Yes we are bad but if you look Republic of Ireland, Spain and Portugal are.

Your initial graph didn't show that we had more cases that all of the EU added together it showed how much worse our cases per million was (over 300) compared with an average of the EU.
.
No one is saying (especially not me) that we shouldn't have handled it better. Just that you cannot say for the moment Europe have handled it that much better than us. It is highly transmissible.

Neither do I disagree with track and trace with you just that you are metaphorically hitting your head against a brick wall. Because it simply isn't going to happen at all.

I do think though that the fact we havent oked for 12-17 years old isnt a bad thing - we dont have the supplies and it is one that should take time

Covid-19 is not Polio for anyone getting confused at the difference.

I know this is difficult to comprehend but they are not the same virus and they affect children to different degrees. They are also spread in different ways.

Using google will enable you to learn the differences. This is much more sensible than making wild comparisons about why they are the same based on bollocks and conspiracy theories.

HTH

Comparing COVID and polio is absolute melt territory

@AnyFucker

Comparing COVID and polio is absolute melt territory

Quite.

The fact we are supposed to take the concerns of people spouting that kind of crap seriously just makes me laugh.

Yes I am concerned about kids. From covid restrictions, from covid and also from covid vaccinations.

The idea that I'm not is bonkers. However I remain rational and realise these things need to be balanced and put into context.

The context here is precisely that covid-19 is not polio. The UK take up of the vaccine amongst adults means we are uniquely in a situation where its less crucial to vaccinate kids. Given we have side effect data for younger people which is concerning we have certain ethical dilemas at play which are different to other countries.

But yeah. God forbid judging this situation in the UK on its merits and data when you can scream buuutttt pollllliiooooo.

This is where we are though.