Anti-lockdowners pretending to care about kids again

[noblegiraffe]

So it's all over the news about how nearly 400,000 kids are having to isolate because of covid cases in schools. Complaints about how disruptive to education it is and to the mental health of the children involved. This disruptive isolation must end as soon as possible.

Contrast to last November when nearly a million kids were self-isolating in a week. Do you remember the headlines, discussions and outrage about that?

No, of course you don't. Because back then, the solution to so many kids isolating was to put more mitigation measures in schools and attempt to stop so many kids catching it.

Now they can argue that it doesn't matter if all kids catch it, they're all over the 'terrible' isolation figures which are less than half of those last year.

I'm SO done with people only caring about kids and education when they think that they can use them for their own benefit.

If these loud voices could be used to talk about things like the cuts to pupil premium, the pitiful covid catch-up funding, the critical shortage of teachers, the unsafe state of schools, the massive waiting lists for CAMHS and SEN services, then maybe I'd believe them when they claim to care about children.

For some it'll never be enough. Even though most adults should be fully vaccinated come September it'll then be a "But I've not had a booster, therefore I'm unsafe and bubbles must close".

@ichundich

It will be …. “But not all the children have been vaccinated”. We must close the bubble. We must enforce some mitigations. (That are on the whole not effective, but we do like to use this word an awful lot).

You’re right, for some people it will never be enough. For lots of other normal folk who like to get on with their lives and try and regain a sense of normality, it will be enough.

Apparently the second type of person is “pretending to care about children”. Come off it!!

Never heard so much nonsense on here to be honest.

@Chillychangchoo

How about schools actually start supporting children and families? You know by actually teaching them, and having children in school?

Incredible concept.

I know schools are just following guidance so they cannot be blamed for these isolation rules but some teachers are loving it a little bit too much, let’s be honest!

Are they? Teachers are loving having to self-isolate and move a classroom based lesson plan online overnight are they?

Or teaching half the class who are in the school and the other half who are also self-isolating at home?

Or watching their school community drop like flies, request to move to online provision and be told 'no you need to let the virus spread so that you've got more cases before you move to online schooling' Re Greenwich and Islington.

Schools have had children in school as much as the government has allowed this year. You sound unhinged when you say that schools need to start supporting children and families by having them in school then you know that schools are just following guidance so can't be blame for these isolation rules in the same message.

The government needs to start supporting schools more although if parents and the media are hellbent on blaming teachers for years of governmental underfunding and educational incompetence, I suppose there's no impetus for them to do so.

And seriously noblegiraffe I can imagine that you're at the banging your head against the wall stage.

The letter that you posted was basically a prophecy - lots of the country did have to quarantine over Xmas then schools were closed to all but keyworker children for months earlier this year.

The only place I saw reference to the actual data in the autumn and what it would mean going forward, especially the ONS random survey data, was on MN. Otherwise, there was media silence.

Just the fact that people are still interpreting your numerous posts about 'making schools safer so that they can stay open' as 'noble wants schools to close' does indicate a lack of basic comprehension or critical thinking skills.

@christinarossetti19

I think maybe your own critical thinking skills are lacking if all you can do is blindly follow what one individual has to say. It’s sycophantic and slightly embarrassing.

Interesting to know that if we now disagree with noble not only do people assume you’re getting paid, belong to a campaigning group, you’re a troll or astroturfing, you now lack “basic comprehension skills”.

Right. Glad we have cleared that up. I feel blessed with all of your knowledge now bestowed upon me.

How else can the logic in your posts be described?

Noble says 'I want schools to be safer so that they can stay open.'

You read 'noble wants school closed'.

You say 'schools need to support children and their families and stay open' and 'schools are only following guidelines and the isolations aren't their fault' in the same post.

Other than lacking basic comprehension and critical thinking, how else would you describe your posts?

[quote Chillychangchoo]@Rainuntilseptember

Well schools are special aren’t they? They’re places that educate the next generation. They’re not really normal workplaces are they? The job itself doesn’t also fit the societal norm (particularly the working hours which are incredibly long) and teachers knew that before embarking on it. A bit like how nurses accept they will be working night shifts, and with death perhaps on a daily basis etc.

I’ve worked throughout the pandemic in unsafe conditions in social care so I’m pretty sure the working from home luxury is also off the cards for someone like myself. You do just have to get on with it in certain professions. If you don’t like it, then maybe find a new job? No ones forcing me to work front facing either but I choose too. No one is forcing you to go back and teach in a school if it’s something that now doesn’t fit your criteria.

Children absolutely need to come first and they need to be in school all of the time. That means no more isolations, full stop. There is no other template.[/quote]
There could however be another template, one in which this elusive £15 billion gets given to schools, proper ventilation measures get put in place, vulnerable kids get offered vaccines and so on.

The template that we ought to have.

We really don't need experienced teachers leaving the profession, by the way.

@christinarossetti19

Oh so because “noble says she wants schools to be safer ” then what she says must be absolutely true at all costs? Sorry not buying it, noble has her own agenda here. She doesn’t want our germy kids anywhere near her. She has unrealistic expectations.

I don’t think schools will truly be safe enough for some people.

@herecomesthsun

Experienced teachers have long been leaving the profession due to reasons not even related to the pandemic. It’s this negativity that transfers over to absolutely everything in education and why some teachers are hell bent on never being happy. Also why they’re incredibly defensive about everything.

And I’m not saying they should be happy by the way because the conditions irrespective of a pandemic are shit in education but the negativity in general crosses over at every single opportunity and this is just another straw clutcher.

It’s time to get back to school. With no mitigations, with no isolations. Schools can therefore remain open. They’re not ever going to be entirely safe. The vaccination programme has been a success.

@Chillychangchoo
The fact that schools (like anywhere) can't be 100% safe does not mean that we shouldn't be doing what we can to make them safe.

And there is quite a bit more that we can do, other than pretend the pandemic never happened and forget about health and safety.

Oh the pandemic happened alright. It will also come to an end too at some point. Not until the education and wellbeing of a generation is destroyed though, all in the name of “health and safety”. From where I’m sitting it’s you lot who don’t give a flying shit about children’s education but carry on pretending.

Fingers crossed common sense will prevail at some point.

Sorry not buying it, noble has her own agenda here.

This in spades. There are a few posters who clearly have an agenda.

Um, I'd have thought pretty much every poster had an 'agenda', given that MN is a public forum where people, um, discuss and debate things.

I agree herecomesthesun. It is beyond me that people can't see the logic between investing in health and safety in schools and them being heathier and safer.

Investing in health and safety at what cost? It’s not proportionate is it? Adults are incredibly safe now after two vaccines? Children are also at an incredibly low risk.

Don’t you know that some posters on here are just affiliated individuals? 😉. Some people have far more of an “agenda” than others. If you want to believe what people say at face value without thinking about deeper motives then your critical thinking skills are lacking, and you’re probably also very naive.

One of the two, possibly both.

The bottom line is. I don’t think my child (and most others CEV excepted) are at risk of Covid being anything other than a mild illness for them. At some point they may well get it and then will have immunity.

I’m more worried about flu, meningitis, sepsis. Just other illnesses that are shown to be more severe in children.

All vulnerable teachers should be vaccinated now and by September all of them will be.

The balance has tipped and schools won’t need any mitigations for Covid. Well any more than what they do for other illnesses. So this discussion is slightly pointless. Other than for the OP to be cross that apparently none of us gave a shit in November (we did we just knew the government would do f all).

Every parent would love there to be investment and more money in schools. If a party promised this I would vote for them.

I posted this upthread, but will post it again as anyone who gives a shit about children might want to read it.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927578/

Research is still emerging, and it's no doubt moved on from March 2021 when this was published, but what there is suggests that it's somewhere between stunningly naive and blatantly refusing to engage with the facts to say that covid is a mild illness for children, looking at it from a epidemiological/ public health pov.

Of course it will be mild for many children (so are flu and measles). It doesn't seem to be as dangerous as meningitis or sepsis, but is much, much more common and easily transmitted.

This article also says that evidence up to February suggests that covid isn't easily transmitted in the classroom, although the data was gathered before the more contagious variants had emerged.

Which is interesting, given that secondary school children were the most infected subset of the population when schools were open in the autumn.

It would be useful if someone could post some research suggesting that either covid isn't dangerous for children on a population level, or that there's enough research to suggest this, just for contrast.

Also, what reasons there are for not improving health and safety measures in schools would be interesting too.

Chillychangchoo

@christinarossetti19

I think maybe your own critical thinking skills are lacking if all you can do is blindly follow what one individual has to say. It’s sycophantic and slightly embarrassing.
Especially when epithets such as ‘prophetic’ are used!
Like girl crush on the 6th former who spouts similar tosh.

anyone who gives a shit about children

This is why we end up at loggerheads.

I give more than a shit as it happens. I’m just not convinced isolating the whole class is at all helpful to anyone.

I’ve just returned from an exercise class where someone got a phone call to say her daughter would need to isolate for ten days. Everyone agreed it was madness. No one suggested it was the fault of the teachers.

I don’t think there is a single parent who wouldn’t want improved health and safety (whatever that actually means) but are more realistic in their expectations.

I would imagine improvement to all schools ventilation systems would be a gigantic undertaking and not one that could be implemented in a matter of a few short years, never mind months

@ichundich

For some it'll never be enough. Even though most adults should be fully vaccinated come September it'll then be a "But I've not had a booster, therefore I'm unsafe and bubbles must close".

Yep! Can see it coming a Mile off

@christinarossetti19

Also, what reasons there are for not improving health and safety measures in schools would be interesting too.

Health and safety in schools is a very high priority generally. What you are saying is that literal buildings aren't fit for purpose. How many years do you think it will take to build new schools?

Isolations are madness and no research to show effective. We know how harmful they are.

It would be great to have better ventilation in schools. For all illnesses that go around, not just Covid. What other mitigations do people want going forward?

I hope the hand washing stays. And not sending ill children to school.

It would be helpful to cost up the ventilation filter devices. Our dentist has one. Let’s be honest the government won’t pay. However, on a practical note, PTA fundraising? If they are a couple of thousand (I have no idea).

I think @noblegiraffe clearly has an excellent grasp of figures (she is I imagine a great maths teacher) and is generally right about the stats and trends in data.

Her critical thinking skills look pretty damn good to me.

I think we need this £15 billion catch up investment as suggested by Kevan Collins to be actually provided.

As regards risk to children this is the American take on the vaccines and covid and their relative risk to kids. This is why they are vaccinating their kids, while we're vacillating.

There is a discussion we can have about the very rare complications of vaccines, but I myself think the risk from covid is more. I don't want my kids to get this infection if we can avoid it (they are both at school as I write, though my elder child's school only had his year fully in as of yesterday).

Oh and masks for christsake, is there anyone in Government with the gumption to say that they need to come back in schools so that the kids can get to the end of term.

@Nicknacky

I don’t think there is a single parent who wouldn’t want improved health and safety (whatever that actually means) but are more realistic in their expectations.

I would imagine improvement to all schools ventilation systems would be a gigantic undertaking and not one that could be implemented in a matter of a few short years, never mind months

Masks. They almost all have masks because we went and got them so this would cost nothing to implement (mind you my son and his mates seem to have made an educated decision to keep wearing them a lot of the time around school) .