If you think cases are exploding and vaccines are ineffective, what’s to be done?

[IrmaFayLear]

I see a number of posters are keen to draw attention to a huge rise in cases, plus new variants coming in too. They are also eager to point out vaccine failure.

I would be interested to know what their personal view is of our medium to long-term prospects. If no end is in sight and vaccines do not work, do they foresee societal collapse?

But obviously vaccines do stop people from catching Covid... Once the majority - 80-90% - are vaccinated, because of true herd immunity. At that point the virus has only very limited opportunity to spread (so people are highly unlikely to catch it).

@Tealightsandd

But obviously vaccines do stop people from catching Covid... Once the majority - 80-90% - are vaccinated, because of true herd immunity. At that point the virus has only very limited opportunity to spread (so people are highly unlikely to catch it).

ONLY if 80-90% of all sections of the population are vaccinated, so the remaining non-immune people are reasonably spaced out within the community and not likely to come into contact with each other.

the 80-90% at whole population level doesn't work for Covid because of the way we have rolled out the vaccination, and because of the way we have run schools colleges as non-Covid safe environments. The 10-20% unvaccinated are all collected into a single place, in close contaxct with no SD or any PPE, for hours at a time - and thuis it doesn't matter whether the rest of the population is vaccinated, the virus will spread extremely rapidly within this population.

To reach herd immunity, you need to get 80-90% of the population as a whole, and for the unvaccinated to be randomly distributed within society, not collected together in high risk environments daily!

Oh completely agree @cantkeepawayforever

It has to be done properly. And also the rest of the world. It's not something everyone supports but I'm with Biden on wanting a temporary patent waiver. If his talks with the drugs companies succeed, it would help massively to speed things up.

Sorry, Tealights - I do get a bit wound up by people saying 'X% of adults are vaccinated so we are nearly at herd immunity', completely ignoring what herd immunity actually means and how it works!

@IrmaFayLear

I see a number of posters are keen to draw attention to a huge rise in cases, plus new variants coming in too. They are also eager to point out vaccine failure.

I would be interested to know what their personal view is of our medium to long-term prospects. If no end is in sight and vaccines do not work, do they foresee societal collapse?

What vaccine failure? 'Cases' in Scotland....very clearly in the non vaccinated groups.

@Angrymum22

Statistics are wonderful tools. Our cases are up by 200% from 8 to 32. You would only need another household for hospital cases to increase by 100%. Look at the actual figures not the %.

I have.

As I said, the case figures are higher than at any point in the pandemic except for a few weeks in January, and have taken us from a generally 'low' risk area to one far above the national average.

Hospitalisations are following exactly the same graph shape, with the expected lag, but the increase is even steeper.

More children are out of school - due to clusters of cases - than at any point in the pandemic.

It can't be spun as a positive news story, whichever way you look at it.

(I can't even say 'it's OK, deaths are low so it's fine' - the time lag means that we wouldn't expect to see any deaths yet due to the most recent rise in cases, because the rise has been so recent, sudden and steep. We are still in the 'low deaths due to very low cases' stage, due to the very low cases up to 3 weeks ago.)

I would love if Bono announced something though.

[quote TheDailyCarbunkle]**@TheClaws* 3%* of Australian adults are currently fully vaccinated. That's 3 per cent. People are cancelling AZ appointments in high numbers. So what are they going to do? Force people to be vaccinated?[/quote]

It's slightly more than that, and when looked at closely, the vulnerable and elderly groups are better covered. Our rollout has had a slow start. Vaccines were slow to arrive - Australia was not a high priority nation - and we had AZ primarily at the beginning. Now some people are reacting to the propaganda - and I will use that term - around AZ and choosing not to receive their second dose.

However, we are catching up. Mass vaccination centres are opening up and I think that will help. Previously, getting the vaccination involved a confusing registration online, then you would be invited for appointments at GPs - maybe. The situation is improving.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

The 'close the borders' approach is a truly bizarre level of stupidity. How can anyone think it'll work?

Australia is up shit creek because they took the 'close the borders' approach but vaccination has been very slow and people are reluctant. So how long do they keep their borders closed for? Years? There will always be unvaccinated people, there will always be covid in the world. So what's the end game? Just make Australia an isolated prison?

Closing borders is pure and utter nonsense. At some point borders have to open again and then the same variants will move around. Closing the borders just delays the problem, it doesn't remove it.

Australia is not up shit creek. Colombia, Argentina, Brazil, and many other countries truly are. A sensible and quick response has meant that Australia is in a very good place.

More vaccines are arriving; under 60s have been approved for Pfizer over AZ; more vaccination hubs have opened and are opening. Things were slow to start off as other countries had greater need of the vaccine and aspects of the roll-out were bungled.

Really, even with the current mini-breakout in Australia, there is no comparison. Quarantine of a country aka closing borders and monitoring the fewer arrivals, who are also quarantined, has meant the Australian economy has bounced back, and most people are able to get on with their lives.

3% of Australian adults are currently fully vaccinated. That's 3 per cent. People are cancelling AZ appointments in high numbers. So what are they going to do? Force people to be vaccinated?

No, they are giving them Pfizer and I think later on as supplies arrive Moderna. AZ production is being ramped down. The Aus govt is taking a cautious approach with not just under 40s but now under 60s with regard to clotting issues connected with AZ.

Google tells me, worldwide, 22% of people globally have received their first dose of a covid vaccine. In Australia, which has very low rates of the virus in the community, it is 26.7%. It also tells me, globally, 10% have received a second dose, while 5% of Australians have.

I would rather be in many countries right now than the UK, and Australia is one of them, whether you understand their covid plan or not.

@XenoBitch

According to nurse relative, most of those in hospital have chosen not to be vaccinated, despite being offered vaccine. We must no longer set national policy to protect people who choose to take their chances with the virus. Even NHS staff think these people should remain at home if infected and not seek treatment (except those with medical reasons why they can't have the vaccine)

The HCPs who hold such views that unvaccinated people should be denied treatment should be struck off. Such a slippery slope.

Ppl are entitled to their opinion. Every person not vaccinated who ends up at hospital puts at risk those who can't be vaccinated. If they need ITU they're taking up a bed someone else could gave had and it costs the NHS a lot more than the vaccinations would have.

It's frustrating when you get repeat admissions due to ppl who take no responsibility for their health. Yet back they come to hospital.

If you want to sack ppl for making comments you'd have to fire all the Dr's and Nurses too.

@Thewiseoneincognito thanks for taking the trouble to reply so thoroughly.

@IrmaFayLear

I most certainly do not. I just want to know what some posters think our way out is.

Well for a start let's get rid of this corrupt lying Government!

I'm not being vaccinated no matter how much coercion the government tries to apply.

Hopefully you're not a HCP or careworker then.

[quote Crackbadger]@Thewiseoneincognito thanks for taking the trouble to reply so thoroughly.[/quote]
You’re welcome 🙋🏻‍♀️

Yes re Australia. Obviously it varies by state but they're doing well. Not as urgent need as here so it doesn't have to be rushed. We are a high risk country, with our economy suffering as a consequence. They are not, and consequently they have a healthy economy.

Several family members have already had their Pfizer jabs. In their early 40s. One has had both jabs, the other due to have their second in two weeks (they're doing it on the original 3 week dosing schedule).

Some of the covid board usuals must be busy on a different thread!

Even NHS staff think these people should remain at home if infected and not seek treatment (except those with medical reasons why they can't have the vaccine)

Then those "NHS staff" should be struck off.

@3luckystars

I would love if Bono announced something though.

His retirement preferably!

[quote User135644]@holidayathome No chance of that happening. MP's will want their summer recess abroad. Like last year.[/quote]
Of course! Forgot that.
Nothing, but nothing, gets in the way of MPs and their personal hols.

*Ppl are entitled to their opinion. Every person not vaccinated who ends up at hospital puts at risk those who can't be vaccinated. If they need ITU they're taking up a bed someone else could gave had and it costs the NHS a lot more than the vaccinations would have.

It's frustrating when you get repeat admissions due to ppl who take no responsibility for their health. Yet back they come to hospital.

If you want to sack ppl for making comments you'd have to fire all the Dr's and Nurses too*

A covid patient gets put on a covid ward, so someone who is unvaccinated and admitted is not putting anyone at risk.

Every person who is admitted to ITU takes up a bed that could be for someone else, regardless of reason. The NHS does not judge... just treats us according to need, not morals.

I have taken up a bed many times due to self inflicted stuff. I am less worthy because it was not an accident?

NHS staff who would treat someone based on morals, or something being self inflicted are not fit to practice. If I saw any of the NHS staff on my social media express such views, I would report them to whatever professional board they are under.

A question to everyone on here.
Do you accept UK flu deaths?
How many threads are on MN about all the deaths from flu, up to 2019 or whenever?
I havent looked, but maybe a handful?
And yet people died, and barely anyone bats an eyelid.
Why? Because it wasnt likely to impact on yourself very much?

Even the gov has said we have to accept a certain number of covid deaths each year.

Life [and death]is not fluffy bunny stuff.

Vaccines may get everything down by 90%.
But to expect a magic bullet, is for fairyland.

Actually lightand I'm perhaps in the minority (in the UK) but personally I don't 'accept' avoidable flu deaths.

I've long admired East Asia's more civic minded attitude towards viruses. Wearing masks when ill out of courtesy to others, and their very high standards of hygiene. As for the 'soldiering on' - going into work sick, to be useless due to feeling unwell and passing on illness to colleagues. I'd much prefer the German attitude of listening to your body and not spreading your germs - taking a day or two off to rest and recover.

All the talk of (and at times enthusiasm for) letting it rip aka letting the bodies pile up aka letting Other People die or become disabled from it... and yet we don't allow compassionate humane ways to die. Assisted suicide and euthanasia offer a planned, peaceful, and painless death.

Why is there popular support for getting people to stop smoking and cut down on Bad For You foods? Don't do it, people are told. Because 'it will shorten your life'.

Government regularly has campaigns against smoking and junk food. Despite the fact that, definitely in the case of smoking, there is a net gain to to the taxpayer from these activities. Reduced social care and pension costs, and huge tax revenue.

Why the keeness to prevent avoidable deaths, when they're due to free choice... but less so when it's not a personal chosen risk? It should surely be the other way round.