Finally there’s some sensible news re school isolations

[solarlights]

Refreshing to see a headteacher and doctor on bbc breakfast saying we need to only isolate the dc with covid. Feeling encouraged.

@HiHoSylvie

I think medical ethics is a difficult thing to navigate. Whether we should protect the vulnerable even if it's their choice to be vulnerable is a difficult one and will sound harsh to some.

I was agreeing with you though, but if you're looking for a disagreement, I'm sure you'll find one!

What about CV/CEV children @HiHoSylvie, do we just choose not to protect them? Because if anyone is 'collateral damage' in all of this it certainly seems to be them.

Yes, CEV children do not have a choice whether they are vulnerable or not. The post you quoted was regarding people who choose not to be vaccinated.

The issue about how far we go to protect CEV children by preventing all children from being able to access education is a hugely difficult issue ethically. I'm glad I'm not making that decision.

@HiHoSylvie

Yes, CEV children do not have a choice whether they are vulnerable or not. The post you quoted was regarding people who choose not to be vaccinated.

The issue about how far we go to protect CEV children by preventing all children from being able to access education is a hugely difficult issue ethically. I'm glad I'm not making that decision.

To be honest, I see no evidence that CEV children are being considered at all in any of this. Many parents have deregistered their children - not because they want to homeschool, but because they feel they have no choice. Others (like me) for whom that isn't a possibility feel like we're playing Russian roulette with our children's lives every time they go to school. It is rarely talked about by anyone, no long term solutions have been proposed. If isolation of close contact stops in schools, as the vast majority of people on this thread (and others) obviously think it should, where does that leave us? I have 3 other children - they have all had to isolate several times - I would rather they did this than potentially expose others to Covid. But most of all I would rather there were proper mitigations in place to help prevent spread in schools - ventilation, smaller classes, masks. Surely this would be in everyone's best interests?

@pinkpip100 Completely agree re mitigations.

I am hoping we can get to the end of term and then hopefully the option of vaccination for vulnerable kids will be raised as an option in time for some immunity to develop over the summer.

That's our primary school closed early for the summer holidays. I really hope they bring this new ruling in. We've had our children isolated over and over and over again. Last time they requested that I or DH isolate WITH our 11yo. No. That's just taking the pee. They don't even have Covid.

I hope you're right herecomesthesun.

That sounds like an incredibly difficult position to be in @pinkpip100. Very frustrating when your child doesn't seem to be considered at all.

There are so many children's lives to be considered and clearly not everyone will have the same priorities when it comes to restrictions or lifting them. Homeschooling isn't a possibility for many parents, as financially it doesn't work. This is why children isolating for ten days, unless it very clearly is necessary, is undesirable for many parents, which I'm sure you understand. It's very selfless of you though, that you're happy for your DCs to isolate for the sake of others.

But most of all I would rather there were proper mitigations in place to help prevent spread in schools - ventilation, smaller classes, masks. Surely this would be in everyone's best interests?

Completely agree. This would be a great first option, and the best ongoing option (though not masks in classrooms) for primary who cannot SD or be vaccinated at present.

Vaccination for all over 12s, as is happening in other countries, is the obvious best option for secondaries.

Essentially, when you are happy to work in your workplace with so SD, no masks, no isolation for any but the most obviously affected individuals (and then not for the person who sits next to them so close that they touch), no ventilation, no testing and in close contact - often involving physical touch or a significant amount of bodily fluids - with 30+ people for 6 hours a day, then I am happy for my workplace to be like that too. Until then, not quite so much.

If mitigations in schools meant no more isolating for bubbles, I think most people would support that. Although I said that last winter and wrote to my Tory wanker MP, wrote to the school to support teachers walking out etc and no mitigations have happened. They closed the school instead, which may have been avoided if they'd mitigated.

Tory wanker MP btw was not for mitigations at all and his wanker secretary wrote back to me extremely shirtily saying she was tired and wanted to go home for the evening. Their slogan should be "Tories, we do not give a fuck about any of you", really, bit don't expect they'll go for it.

Schools*

when you are happy to work in your workplace with so SD, no masks, no isolation for any but the most obviously affected individuals (and then not for the person who sits next to them so close that they touch), no ventilation, no testing and in close contact - often involving physical touch or a significant amount of bodily fluids - with 30+ people for 6 hours a day, then I am happy for my workplace to be like that too
Yes that is my work place (school) and all good here - pretty much back to normal mercifully.

fantasy school

Sadly, far from being back to normal, my area has more cases in schools (not single cases either) and in the community than at almost any point during the pandemic.

There is 1 year group that as far as i can work out is learning at home in every single local secondary, with multiple cases in every school in that year group.

If you are back to normal, then you are really lucky . We have been very lucky through much of the pandemic, but the resulting complacency has led to a certain amount of carelessness in the community and the post half term spike in cases has come as something of a wake up call.

So here's the thing.

If we are going to reopen fully, then the virus will spread. That makes it pointless even testing any more, never mind self-isolating. If reopening in full is the plan, then we need to follow the UK's epidemic strategy which precludes community testing and without tests, you can't isolate!

The alternative is a zero-covid strategy.

NOTHING anywhere between these two makes any sense at all (which probably means we'll do it).

@Chillychangchoo

This needs to fucking happen from September. I am absolutely FURIOUS. Children NEED to be in school.

They do need to be in school but there's currently 53,000 CEV children who many I'm sure would love to have just missed 30 or 40 days in isolation as opposed to over a year with no end in sight. Do they not need to be in school then? While we allow covid to spread unchecked in schools then they cannot be there! We are lucky in that ours have been able to return after Easter due to very low case rates in our area (not in england) and they have stayed low with no cases in the school but we will have to remove them again straight away if cases start to rise. There are many thousands out there that haven't been this lucky.

If we are concerned about the impact on children then why only the healthy children. Why is there absolutely no concern for those CEV children who have seen the worst of the impact?

I thought it was now viable for CEV children to be vaccinated where their medical specialists deemed the benefits outweigh the risks which is a different balance to the majority of their age group.

Depending on the condition, how do CEV children normally manage the infection pit of schools?

Isolating chunks of the school population on a dubious level of contact (particularly secondaries where there may well be no contact at all) significantly outweighs the slight advantages of infection control. Every other illness normally only isolates the ill individual except occasionally such as particularly virulent sick bugs, but there is a major difference between 48 hours and 10 days, especially where that gets repeated.

My sons entire year seven group was sent home for ten days on Friday. That's 300 kids home for ten days, with dire daily email warnings and tantrums about kids from this year group being seen outside of their homes in their parents cars or walking a dog in a field. "May we as a school take this opportunity to remind you of your responsibilities and your legal obligations? We we are so disappointed in our students for flouting the clear rules that keep us all safe."

There's even been a vague threat of calling the police and reporting these kids for daring to be outside of their home unless they're being rushed to hospital.

Ok, Mrs Smith, report a parent with their eleven year old in the car because they simply had to take their other kids to school and didn't want to leave her on her own. Report a family walking a dog alone in a field by their home.

One kid had a positive PCR test and everyone has to leave. Not the teachers that taught him. Not years 9 and 11 that his siblings are in. Not his school bus driver or anyone who was on the bus with him, unless they're also year seven.

@BogRollBOGOF

I thought it was now viable for CEV children to be vaccinated where their medical specialists deemed the benefits outweigh the risks which is a different balance to the majority of their age group.

Depending on the condition, how do CEV children normally manage the infection pit of schools?

Isolating chunks of the school population on a dubious level of contact (particularly secondaries where there may well be no contact at all) significantly outweighs the slight advantages of infection control. Every other illness normally only isolates the ill individual except occasionally such as particularly virulent sick bugs, but there is a major difference between 48 hours and 10 days, especially where that gets repeated.

Unfortunately not for all CEV children yet especially those under 12. It would seem 12+ are starting to get some approval for vaccine by their consultants now. The medical professionals haven't been issued with any guidance so they are really putting themselves on the line to agree an unknown vaccination risk without guidelines so I can see why many are reluctant to do it and it puts them in an awful position.

In some cases for normal infection risk depending on the situation individual classes will be advised to keep children away with coughs and colds due to a child on immunosuppressive treatments which lowers the risk. These children generally have extra vaccinations as well to help prevent some of the things which could cause them issues, rsv, flu, pneumonia. There is always a risk however and I think every parent of a CEV child accepts that the environment cannot be risk free (hence why my own are back now as a balanced risk) but the issue is when covid is so virulent in that community and school the exposure is heightened quite a lot even more so than the normal illnesses and they have no protection via vaccination.

I do agree that the isolating of entire year groups is probably not necessary but certainly in young primary I don't think its unreasonable to isolate the class with the case because really they are all close contacts of each other.
I'd even be happy with no isolation but testing everyday of contacts but only if the children were being tested by trained professionals within the school (which the government will never fork out for) or at least a requirement to prove the negative result because otherwise you just have parents not doing the tests or lying about the results.

Comparing covid to every other illness doesn't really work due to the fact its unknown, its new so no general immunity from it, and the incubation period. There are still some rarer notifiable illnesses that do require additional measures if outbreaks happen within schools but luckily these things are rarer than covid.

I think isolating classes (not year groups) where there is a CEV child makes sense at the minute. But that cannot continue forever obviously. I don't think anyone would think it could. I don't think every parent would consent to their 4yo being swabbed every day even if the government would fork out for it. If there was a known CEV child in the class, you'd like to think they would, but if I had, for example a child with ASD who had serious sensory issues and there was also a CEV child in the class, is it acceptable to then make my (hypothetical) child go through daily trauma any more than it is acceptable to expect a CEV child to go to school with untested, unvaccinated children in it?

Apologies if already covered.

Why aren’t we giving isolated kids the pcr perhaps twice and letting them back at five days? Like say in industry? Is it cost/avail of the pcr?

A mum at our school thought she could do that (two PCR tests five days apart and then freeeeeedooooom for her little son). But it was a firm "no" from PHE via the school. It's "just in case" someone comes down with it 9 days after exposure. The "just in case" is what takes some of these measures from understandable to infuriating, as we all know it is never going to be a zero covid. That's never been the approach here. Maybe it should have been, but it wasn't, so the "just in case one of those 89 healthy kids sitting at home instead of being out at school or even out on a walk comes down with it some time later, even if they've had two negative PCR tests" seems bonkers.

Yes I realise it’s not the guidance given to schools. I think my point is why is the gov taking that approach for schools but not other areas. Eg you can travel in but if you take the pcrs you get a shorter isolation.

@Newgirls

Apologies if already covered.

Why aren’t we giving isolated kids the pcr perhaps twice and letting them back at five days? Like say in industry? Is it cost/avail of the pcr?

My other question is would it have to be twice?

If you do the later one

We had to do a free one anyway but negative didn’t help

@Newgirls good point, because people prefer to lock kids up, if you question it you are called selfish and your little darlings shouldn’t complain and be more resilient

It is not unknown to constantly (daily even) test lateral flow negative but PCR positive and all with no symptoms. Additionally continue to test lateral flow negative then two days later follow up PCR negative. Again all the time with no symptoms. Naturally it is understood the home self testing screening for anti gen lateral flow is only suited to possibly detect any cold or family of similar coronavirus perhaps Covid too but it is not diagnostic and can result in false negatives. This is the danger of using these to enter crowded mass multiple household gatherings indoors without much fresh air ventilation and minimal Covid risk mitigation ie schools or offices with most/many unvaccinated. In other words children may be incubating seeding and asymptomatically “inadvertently” spreading Covid in schools as if any other illness which also tend to spread like wildfire easily between children. Possibly why the whole bubble not just confirmed PCR positive tested needs to stay in self isolation or seek hospital care.

I think twice to allow for incubation? And because travellers do it at five days and kids have to isolate for 10?

It feels like the guidance is out of date now we have stock of PCRs.