No senior staff in office

[WayOutOfMyDepth]

My employer has had some people in the office throughout the pandemic as we are classed as key workers and some aspects of the job can't be done remotely. We are mostly junior in terms of grading ie most people on the lowest grade and maybe one or two from one or two grades above. Very rarely someone more senior will come in but they mostly work from home.

There's been a couple of times when people have taken ill/injured themselves and whoever is around has to deal with it.

Some colleagues have fairly complex health needs eg epilepsy, cancer not in remission etc and we have had to manage this ourselves because there is no one from HR and no one health and safety trained on site.

Me and my colleagues only earn £18k and although there is usually someone in from the grade above us they aren't always available. I've had to speak to the 999 service and don't know what I'm talking about when I do. It just doesn't feel either coherent or safe.

How can I raise this? How are other businesses handling it?

To be clear I don't want to take health and safety training myself. I don't want the responsibility given that I don't earn very much. I want our managers to come up with a solution.

@NeverDropYourMoonCup nice try but we did do all that.

How about a conversation that goes "yes, I'm paid £70k a year but I don't give a shit about what goes on in the workplace I'm supposed to be managing so I can't tell you anything about the person you've just brung in to hospital plus I'm on lunch and I have a camper van to look after so please talk to one of our drones, byeeee".

Except even that didn't happen because they didn't pick up the fucking phone.

Problem is if management are hardly ever there no one notices you stepping up.

Or they do and are just glad of it happening without having to pay you more.

As is the case with us locking up every night and co ordinating the keys between us. We're not getting paid extra for that.

[quote WayOutOfMyDepth]@NeverDropYourMoonCup nice try but we did do all that.

How about a conversation that goes "yes, I'm paid £70k a year but I don't give a shit about what goes on in the workplace I'm supposed to be managing so I can't tell you anything about the person you've just brung in to hospital plus I'm on lunch and I have a camper van to look after so please talk to one of our drones, byeeee".

Except even that didn't happen because they didn't pick up the fucking phone.[/quote]
Then why overdramatise into a ridiculous tale of imbeciles running around screaming at one another, not having a clue what to do in a medical emergency?

We get more sense out of a bunch of 11 year olds.

Yeah I get it. We're low paid so we're childish/imbeciles, despite being the ones that have kept things going throughout pandemic. This has been a fairly constant theme throughout the thread.

When did you last go to work, btw?

(Not expecting an honest answer.)

I mean, we see you.

@WayOutOfMyDepth you sound like you just want to rant about how shitty your office is.
Your problem is unsolvable unless you move jobs but with that attitude you’re not going to get far...

@WayOutOfMyDepth

Yeah I get it. We're low paid so we're childish/imbeciles, despite being the ones that have kept things going throughout pandemic. This has been a fairly constant theme throughout the thread.

When did you last go to work, btw?

(Not expecting an honest answer.)

I mean, we see you.

Yesterday. As I have done throughout all but the first four months of the first lockdown because I came down with Covid three days before lockdown started, so worked at home in between struggling to breathe until August when I went straight back in again.

You're portraying yourselves as childish imbeciles, so incompetent and disinterested in welfare of yourselves/colleagues that you are either too good or not good enough to do a three day training course that, whilst it would provide actual advice in what to do if there is an emergency, it doesn't go in depth into how to phone an ambulance, as that's generally covered between Nursery and the first year of Juniors.

Ok 👌🤣

Two separate issues. I understand you would like to see and be supported by a manager once in a while. I think this is definitely and issue you should raise. But I don't get your issue with calling an ambulance for your sick colleagues. Would you not do it for a stranger in the street either? I think this would be expected in any job and everyone should have a basic level of first aid training.

@WayOutOfMyDepth

I'm in an office which is supposed to have processes and procedures, and which previously did, very tight ones. But when push came to shove the low paid workers got shoved outdoors and the higher paid ones stayed at home. And stayed. And stayed. For over a year.

But this has nothing to do with an emergency medical situation when you had to call an ambulance! It would make no difference. You would still have to support your sick colleague and that may have ended up with you still needing to call an ambulance! It is everyone's responsibility not just a managers! The situation would be no different.

You're portraying yourselves as childish imbeciles, so incompetent and disinterested in welfare of yourselves/colleagues that you are either too good or not good enough to do a three day training course

And you don't even need to do that - there's a very good one day course and even a three hour course. But the employer should be doing a risk assessment to decide how many first aiders are needed, as I said in my first post.

There are also free first aid courses on Futurelearn. Everyone should know first aid anyway.

@WayOutOfMyDepth

Ok 👌🤣

Go on, then - search my user name. See if you can figure out where I work from the posts mentioning Heads of Year, Head Teachers, students, 11 year olds, teenagers and the slight hint where I say in posts 'I work in a school.

First aid is pretty basic these days, compared to years ago.
The premise is just to give it a go as best you can, mostly.

The first aid has nothing to do with your lack of management.

The lack of management is however sounding like it is having a big impact. Up to them if they care or not. You might as well sit there and twiddle your thumbs all day and see if they notice.

Teacher here, been in work throughout.

Again you need to have a grown up conversation with your management about what is happening in the office. Focusing on the "emergency" situations isn't helpful. They need to know that day to day procedures aren't being followed.

@WayOutOfMyDepth

Yeah I get it. We're low paid so we're childish/imbeciles, despite being the ones that have kept things going throughout pandemic. This has been a fairly constant theme throughout the thread.

When did you last go to work, btw?

(Not expecting an honest answer.)

I mean, we see you.

It's the opposite. You're the one who has said over and over and over again that on your salary you want someone else to take responsibility.

And others - plenty of whom might be on similar salaries - have pointed out that there's no guarantee that someone higher paid will make a 'strategy', precisely because they're not going to be smarter or calmer and they won't have more information than you. You're the one treating management like they're meant to be the grownups with all the answers.

It does seem childish to expect that someone more senior would have known how to answer questions about their heart medication.

Then when it came down to you really just wanting them to have to be back too, and you wanted a way to get at them, it seemed even more childish.

If you insist on never doing a stroke more than is in your job description, not even a first aid course that would benefit you too, and causing trouble for management, then the tradeoff is that you'll be on £18k as long as you're there. Which is of course fine, there are plenty of smart and capable people who work in NMW jobs with no desire to become management. But then you have to make your peace with other, more ambitious or differently circumstancedpeople being paid differently, or you'll go mad.

It sounds a difficult and unpleasant place to work, if any problems come up does anyone actually try and take the lead and try to control the immediate situation or does everyone just go round moaning about how it's not their job, were not being paid enough to deal with this shit etc which doesnt actually help anyone or resolve any problems. Just complaining about wfh managers wont help, someone needs to sit down and list the potential problems and concerns then email it to the relevant people. What do the rest of your colleagues think about it, what is the admin supervisor doing to help. Is it a privately owned company or a large organisation.

@WayOutOfMyDepth

If the team aren't competent enough to call another building nor 999 confidently, then it's very serious that they've been left without any supervision

Ok so the situation is you've got a load of junior admin staff left to their own devices for over a year, someone's fitting on the floor, you think there's a first aider in the office down the road, someone goes on the intranet to find out his extension number and shouts it across the office, he doesn't answer, someone else rings the ambulance service who asks them all kinds of damn fool questions they don't have the answer to, no one's got a clue about what to do about the person who's fitting, someone starts a stopwatch on their phone because they vaguely know we should time it, another person runs and gets some paper towels to put under the person fitting, turns out the extension number is out of date so another person runs down the street, meanwhile the ambulance service is asking a load of questions that no one has answers to, someone else has started a stopwatch across the room, there's a bit of debate about which is accurate, everyone's moving chairs and tables out the way, the person who's run down the road finds out the first aider isn't in today, people in both offices are scrolling through their personal phones and Facebook messengers thinking who would be available, the guy who's been looking on teams throughout has been sending scattergun messages to whoever he can think of, the whole thing's a fucking mess and meanwhile the fitting isn't stopping, the ambulance won't get there for two hours and then you need to figure out how to call a taxi.

In this situation, it's not about the fit or phoning an ambulance. Management should be around for:

• ensuring there are risk assessments done for the person with epilepsy to reduce the occurrence and monitor this.
• ensuring the next of kin from their personal file is contacted in this event.
• ensured someone went in the ambulance as a support / point of contact
• ensured the work was covered for the sick person and the person with them
• supported everyone who saw something awful
• reviewed the event and offered some first aid / emergency training or protocols so things were clearer next time
• reviewed the risk assessment for the individual and check it's correct
• support the person while in hospital etc as needed and deal with all the sickness absence aspects.
• do a fair bit of hand holding and encouragement that everyone did as best they could.

That's why we have managers. And they actually need to see people and be around for them to be any point to them. And it's their legal responsibility to their staff!

@undertheblue except there's absolutely no requirement for someone with epilepsy to disclose their condition and many don't, because they are mostly stable (as clearly this person was, or their colleagues would have had more of a clue of what to do), or they may never have fitted before.

Ideally a manager would contact people in person for support after such an event, but they could have come in for this. Everything else you list could have been done remotely.

A 2 hour wait for an ambulance is bizarre of it was a real emergency. Either they're conscious at that point and could have called an Uber or they're still unconscious and someone should have called 999 way before to update on the severity.

Yes, their first aid policy needs an update, but most of this still sounds like a bitter person who is annoyed about management and their holidays.

I'm also in the office, btw, and don't have anyone reporting to me, so am not thinking guiltily of my own campervan at this point. But this simultaneous hatred of superiors yet wanting them to fly in and solve all your problems is exactly why I left the public sector, it's so frustrating.

There would not normally be a colleague going in an ambulance with someone in any case.

@OverTheRubicon well I do manage people and would expect all that to be done. If people don't disclose that's up to them. I also don't think it's appropriate to 'do everything remotely'.

I do get where you're coming from OP.

Managers have a duty to, em, manage and it's really demotivating and demoralising when they're not on site or not at the end of the phone repeatedly for over a year.

The organisation does have to duty to ensure that risk assessments/accidents and emergency protocols are up to date and that staff are trained in them.

undertheblue is right - it's not possible to do all that remotely for a protracted period of time.

@undertheblue totally agree with your list and I'm an operations manager.

We'd also need to report the event in the accident/incident book and I'd notify a director if one weren't on-site,

Calling 999 is pretty much the simplest thing in all of this.

So glad I work where I work. I can't imagine anyone just being sent off in an ambulance alone. The least we'd do is arrange for a family member to be there and one of us stay with them until that point.

[quote OverTheRubicon]@undertheblue except there's absolutely no requirement for someone with epilepsy to disclose their condition and many don't, because they are mostly stable (as clearly this person was, or their colleagues would have had more of a clue of what to do), or they may never have fitted before.

Ideally a manager would contact people in person for support after such an event, but they could have come in for this. Everything else you list could have been done remotely.

A 2 hour wait for an ambulance is bizarre of it was a real emergency. Either they're conscious at that point and could have called an Uber or they're still unconscious and someone should have called 999 way before to update on the severity.

Yes, their first aid policy needs an update, but most of this still sounds like a bitter person who is annoyed about management and their holidays.

I'm also in the office, btw, and don't have anyone reporting to me, so am not thinking guiltily of my own campervan at this point. But this simultaneous hatred of superiors yet wanting them to fly in and solve all your problems is exactly why I left the public sector, it's so frustrating.

There would not normally be a colleague going in an ambulance with someone in any case.[/quote]
This.
OP has never answered any post pointing out that the only solution if the place is as mismanaged as she claims is to leave. The fact that they’re underpaid make me think it’s a small/medium sized business of some sort without proper policy and process. At this rate they won’t be in business for any much longer anyway...

If you want to earn more or WFH then move jobs.

Presumably you are all adults and can decide whether to stay or go. Millions can’t work from home so have to go to workplaces. If they didn’t, where would food, utilities etc come from.

The less staff on site the less risk of covid as more room to distance, less people etc.

I don't want to earn more. I want the people who do earn more to fulfill their responsibilities.