No senior staff in office

[WayOutOfMyDepth]

My employer has had some people in the office throughout the pandemic as we are classed as key workers and some aspects of the job can't be done remotely. We are mostly junior in terms of grading ie most people on the lowest grade and maybe one or two from one or two grades above. Very rarely someone more senior will come in but they mostly work from home.

There's been a couple of times when people have taken ill/injured themselves and whoever is around has to deal with it.

Some colleagues have fairly complex health needs eg epilepsy, cancer not in remission etc and we have had to manage this ourselves because there is no one from HR and no one health and safety trained on site.

Me and my colleagues only earn £18k and although there is usually someone in from the grade above us they aren't always available. I've had to speak to the 999 service and don't know what I'm talking about when I do. It just doesn't feel either coherent or safe.

How can I raise this? How are other businesses handling it?

To be clear I don't want to take health and safety training myself. I don't want the responsibility given that I don't earn very much. I want our managers to come up with a solution.

So the person has a fit and you send them off in an ambulance? Then what?

When it happened with us, the employee fell on some stairs, hit their head, lost consciousness then came round and were violently ill and couldn't remember who they were. It took about 3 of us to manage the situation. Someone else had a panic attack just witnessing it and needed their own support.

We had to close off part of the office to give them privacy and communicate that out, someone else stayed with them and someone had to be outside to guide the ambulance crew in. We're minutes from a hospital but it took 90 minutes for the ambulance to arrive.

Wouldn't you then want someone to go to hospital with them or to contact a family member? What if you didn't know who to ring or whether it would be appropriate?

That's why some kind of leadership or experience is needed. I think your employers are seriously in breach of their responsibility and duty of care.

The problem is that you've said your job can't be done from home, so you need to go to work.
The guidance is and always has been work from home if possible, in your case it isn't.
It's not great but it does sound a bit crazy to me that fully grown adults feel like they need supervision.

I can imagine panic in my office if someone had a fit even if the managers were there. You phone 999 and give them the info you can, that's as much as anyone can do.

Trying to help someone in an emergency situation is doing the right thing, regardless of your pay.

YANBU to ask for a first aider on site, but someone is going to need to do it rather than just saying they don't make enough to!

I

The legal minimum is to have an 'appointed person' who will take charge in an emergency. That might just mean phone an ambulance and an on call manager.

When management stay away it’s inevitable that some of the responsibilities filter down to people who are not paid for that responsibility. Relying on the junior office staff to work mostly unsupervised leads to some slacking and some overworking whilst those paid to ensure this doesn’t happen are unaware. The emergency seems a tip of an iceberg but not really the biggest problem.

Double standards annoy most people and it seems that for your employer this happens. Nothing unreasonable for you to be angry about this, even if managers are working hard all day at home.

An on call manager would be a step forward, someone who can be contacted in HR if needed. Knowledge of medical conditions if not volunteered is not something that I think should be shared though.

@WayOutOfMyDepth

Eg we called the ambulance service this week for a colleague who had took ill and none of us even knew his exact age or what medication he was on or if he had a diagnosed condition, and they ask you that and lots of other questions too. We don't have access to that kind of information. It just feels like there's gaps and also it feels like we've been left on our own.

Majority of employers wouldn't know this either.

Most people with extensive experience health conditions carry cards with the information or having it on their mobile. I have an app that doesn't require knowing my pin.

I don't actually see that HR or anyone else would have changed anything in this situation.

I, do, however, find it strange so many conditions and needs in one office.

@Tinypuppymom

I think you're resentful due to not being able to work from home when your managers can. Nothing wrong with feeling like that, just own it 🤷🏼‍♀️

Exactly OP ... your thread title is irrelevant to what your issue actually is. In which case the answer is probably escalate to management and, that failing find another job. What kind of work do you do that has to be done in a workplace but can carry on without a supervisor...?

@WayOutOfMyDepth

Eg we called the ambulance service this week for a colleague who had took ill and none of us even knew his exact age or what medication he was on or if he had a diagnosed condition, and they ask you that and lots of other questions too. We don't have access to that kind of information. It just feels like there's gaps and also it feels like we've been left on our own.

It is astonishingly unlikely that the management team would know this, either. Certainly I don't for the people I line-manage, unless they've chosen to tell me. And my boss doesn't know about the genetic condition I have or my drug allergies, because it's simply not relevant for work.

Really, calling 999 for a sick stranger should be totally within the skills of anyone over the age of 6. It's not a management task.

So we don't need managers at all then?

Hurrah, we'll just carry on as we are.

What exactly is it that you actually want OP? Have you actually spoken to your manager/ HR?

Surely you can see that your current circumstances aren’t doing yourself or your team any good?

So you need to decide exactly what you are going to do about it to improve your situation?

Sometimes you have to be proactive in order to move forward.

@SpringRainbow

What exactly is it that you actually want OP? Have you actually spoken to your manager/ HR?

Surely you can see that your current circumstances aren’t doing yourself or your team any good?

So you need to decide exactly what you are going to do about it to improve your situation?

Sometimes you have to be proactive in order to move forward.

Agree with this. I get you all are junior level at the moment but do none of you ever want to be managers? Can nobody take charge of the situation, speak to the managers, speak to HR, arrange a first aid course whatever is needed and show a bit of proactive ness and sort yourselves out? Prove you lot are willing to work but need a bit of guidance from your managers. At the moment it all sounds a bit childish, are you all adults or school leavers?

Lol I guess what I want is some fucker in the office who can deal with all the crap we've been mopping up for close to a year and a half rather than them just putting out blog posts on the intranet about the new normal and how they're all buying fucking camper vans instead of going on international holidays because that's such a big adjustment for them. I guess I'm angry. We've been left to get on with it and it's not working. And they don't seem to give a shit.

So we don't need managers at all then?

Managers do not know the medical conditions of every individual, sometimes they may know more, but not really enough to particularly assist a paramedic, and certainly not with any certain. An employee is not required and may not feel comfortable sharing their medical information with their employer. Having them on site adds nothing in this situation, and increasing the numbers in the office does nothing to assist with limiting contacts to reduce covid spread.

Given you do not have any first aiders due to the reduced numbers, asking management for access to courses for more people to become first aiders is likely a very reasonable request, is anyone willing to do it?

At the moment it all sounds a bit childish, are you all adults or school leavers?

We're adults. But we're on £18k a year, we've been left to our own devices for far too long and it's pretty obvious that no one gives a shit about us and yeah we're feeling stressed, demoralised and unappreciated. Those camper vans that management are buying cost as much as houses that those of us in the office can't afford. It's obscene.

@WayOutOfMyDepth

But why are we expected to assume responsibility for £18k?

I agree

I'd call 999 for the person fitting.

Re the meds, tbh I'd imagine HR won't know those answers either. If I had to call an ambulance for someone in a shop, no one would have those answers.

I wouldn't focus on that but report to HSE, who likely won't help, and then your go to policy has to be 999 for fits, heart attacks.

I can see why you are annoyed.

What happens re security for the building? Is it a place that an ambulance can get to easily?

I am sorry OP. It is so shit.

@WayOutOfMyDepth

At the moment it all sounds a bit childish, are you all adults or school leavers?

We're adults. But we're on £18k a year, we've been left to our own devices for far too long and it's pretty obvious that no one gives a shit about us and yeah we're feeling stressed, demoralised and unappreciated. Those camper vans that management are buying cost as much as houses that those of us in the office can't afford. It's obscene.

Cross post I hear you.

@WayOutOfMyDepth you’re in a shitty job and it’s ok to rant. But that’s not what your main post was about.
Also with all due respect if management is that bad the only thing you can do is start looking for a new job and leave.

@WayOutOfMyDepth

So we don't need managers at all then?

Hurrah, we'll just carry on as we are.

My manager was in another country to me for many years. Doesn't mean I didn't have a manager, nor that I'd have to wake him in the middle of his night if someone had a medical issue.

Maybe I'm just a very different type of person but I would try to see solutions instead of problems.
Work out exactly what you need to change and take charge of it. Speak to who you need to speak to to make it happen.
If you can't/won't then you need to get a new job.
Regardless of your salary nobody will make your life better for you, you are in charge of yourself.

You have some serious issues with your work but you need to properly work out what those issues are. As has been mentioned management, a trained first aided and HR might not have that information. What the medical situation with your colleague needed was for someone to stay calm. That doesn’t have to be management. Management doesn’t necessarily mean you can stay calm in a situation, that comes down to personality. You mention that you’ve been putting yourself at risk and management haven’t, yet if they came in your exposure and risk would have increased.

It’s completely fine to feel unsupported by management. It sounds like that is your main issue. Being supported by management doesn’t have to mean them coming in every day. A good management team can support you all effectively with remote working. However, if people are just shredding stuff when they don’t know what to do with it, then it implies that management isn’t even aware these pieces of information are going missing.

The first thing would probably be to talk to your line manager and explain how you feel unsupported. Ideally, all of you would have this conversation. Those of you who are leaving should be stating that as a reason for leaving. Management might not listen and so at this point, honestly there’s not much else you can do other than vote with your feet. If management actually want to listen, I would suggest the first aiders on site policy needs reviewing. It would also probably be a good idea for all staff to have emergency first aid training. Don’t see it as not paid enough to take on that responsibility. Having a first aid qualification doesn’t necessarily make you a trained first aided. At our place all staff have a one day training every three years and registered first aiders have a three day course. First aid is useful to have for you, not your work. It can keep you safe if you injure yourself at home. It can help if you witness an accident or emergency. You also need to address work that is being dropped or shredded and why that isn’t being picked up, what management are going to do to rectify this. It also sounds like your health and safety manager needs to check in and check that policies are suitable for the current environment. You might want to be prepared with what would make you feel more supported. It’s fine to say that you would like a presence in the office. Your argument holds no logical weight if you start saying you put yourself at risk and therefore needed more people in the office.

@AddisonMontgomeryShepherd

Maybe I'm just a very different type of person but I would try to see solutions instead of problems. Work out exactly what you need to change and take charge of it. Speak to who you need to speak to to make it happen. If you can't/won't then you need to get a new job. Regardless of your salary nobody will make your life better for you, you are in charge of yourself.

Addison I expect more realism from the esteemed Dr Montgomery 😂

My understanding is that OP would like the presence of a person who is paid more. Every crisis shouldn't be down to staff on £18k.

My salary is not high and before I worked at home, I resisted several attempts to make me take on more responsibility for no extra pay.

I wonder if senior staff will come across this more. I have no intention of climbing the greasy pole and put a lot of time into my side hustle, which is doing well at the mo.

Do a first aid course? Hell no. Great if someone else wants to do it.

If you all work to rule till they get a senior bod in the office every day, might that help?

Sometimes it's easier to stay under the radar though. New job might be worth a try of course.

So, your not going to do anything proactive like saying all of this to management or HR?

Ok.

@WayOutOfMyDepth

If the team aren't competent enough to call another building nor 999 confidently, then it's very serious that they've been left without any supervision

Ok so the situation is you've got a load of junior admin staff left to their own devices for over a year, someone's fitting on the floor, you think there's a first aider in the office down the road, someone goes on the intranet to find out his extension number and shouts it across the office, he doesn't answer, someone else rings the ambulance service who asks them all kinds of damn fool questions they don't have the answer to, no one's got a clue about what to do about the person who's fitting, someone starts a stopwatch on their phone because they vaguely know we should time it, another person runs and gets some paper towels to put under the person fitting, turns out the extension number is out of date so another person runs down the street, meanwhile the ambulance service is asking a load of questions that no one has answers to, someone else has started a stopwatch across the room, there's a bit of debate about which is accurate, everyone's moving chairs and tables out the way, the person who's run down the road finds out the first aider isn't in today, people in both offices are scrolling through their personal phones and Facebook messengers thinking who would be available, the guy who's been looking on teams throughout has been sending scattergun messages to whoever he can think of, the whole thing's a fucking mess and meanwhile the fitting isn't stopping, the ambulance won't get there for two hours and then you need to figure out how to call a taxi.

If all the staff that are there are either too dim to understand how to ensure a person having a seizure needs a clear area, their head gently supported whilst the seizure is continuing and then turning over into the recovery position whilst somebody calls an ambulance and says there is a person having a seizure at Shit Company Limited, 123 Shit Company Road, Idiottown, TW 1TS or are quite happy to sit there as the person begins to suffocate saying 'well, I'm only paid the same as any other First Aider in the country already, so how can Poor Little Me be expected to behave like a decent human being' and look up Indeed Jobs for better paid work whilst he's making choking sounds, thinking 'I watched a man die in front of me and couldn't be arsed to help him because I deserve more money for that sort of shit' is a good thing to write on the Reason for Leaving Your Last Job, well, there's not much hope for any of you and hopefully the management will fire and rehire the lot with staff who are more intelligent, more responsible and would be grateful for eighteen grand a year.

It doesn't sound like a safe working environment for those with the health conditions especially if a lot of the colleagues are coming and going. Would those most affected be willing to speak to occupational health about how their needs are being met in the workplace and what could be put in place.

I wouldn't want that sort of responsibility if working at that level, the whole point of managers being paid more is because they take responsibility for things like this. It sounds like a right shitshow and I'd be looking for a new job.

@AddisonMontgomeryShepherd

Maybe I'm just a very different type of person but I would try to see solutions instead of problems. Work out exactly what you need to change and take charge of it. Speak to who you need to speak to to make it happen. If you can't/won't then you need to get a new job. Regardless of your salary nobody will make your life better for you, you are in charge of yourself.

Same. I'd see this as an opportunity to step up, show what I'm capable of and use it to get a better job in the future