No senior staff in office

[WayOutOfMyDepth]

My employer has had some people in the office throughout the pandemic as we are classed as key workers and some aspects of the job can't be done remotely. We are mostly junior in terms of grading ie most people on the lowest grade and maybe one or two from one or two grades above. Very rarely someone more senior will come in but they mostly work from home.

There's been a couple of times when people have taken ill/injured themselves and whoever is around has to deal with it.

Some colleagues have fairly complex health needs eg epilepsy, cancer not in remission etc and we have had to manage this ourselves because there is no one from HR and no one health and safety trained on site.

Me and my colleagues only earn £18k and although there is usually someone in from the grade above us they aren't always available. I've had to speak to the 999 service and don't know what I'm talking about when I do. It just doesn't feel either coherent or safe.

How can I raise this? How are other businesses handling it?

To be clear I don't want to take health and safety training myself. I don't want the responsibility given that I don't earn very much. I want our managers to come up with a solution.

I don't want to do a first aid course. I don't earn much and have no interest in it. I also don't earn enough to have to come up with a strategy. But I am looking for information about how to approach the people who do earn a lot while never coming anywhere near us so that they will actually manage the situation.

You're essentially saying that you don't earn enough for this 'level of responsibility'. You want to come to work, do your job and go home.

Raise it with your supervisor.

Then do as we’ve suggested - ask your managers what they have done (or are doing) about providing first aider cover and about a risk assessment for dealing with non-Covid emergencies when there are no managers there.

@DM1209

You're essentially saying that you don't earn enough for this 'level of responsibility'. You want to come to work, do your job and go home.

Raise it with your supervisor.

OP’s not wrong though, are they? Why should someone on £18k have to step up wrong carry out their manager’s responsibility if they’re not being compensated for it? We don’t work for free.

Having a first aid course is good anyway especially if you have DC. Maybe a sensible thing to do would have the manager draw up a ICE contact list for all the staff with their permission. Theres no point in anyone faffing about trying to contact HR or a manager trying to locate someones personnel file because someone fell down the stairs, the ambulance deal with it and can contact NOK. How do your other colleagues feel about it. Does the manager come in for staff meetings,
Are you all aware of the fire policy in the building. Was health and safety, fire included in any induction sessions.

Ok will do.

I guess I feel nervous because it seems expected that we'll just get on with it so it looks like I'm causing trouble.

But yeah essentially none of us who have been working throughout are paid enough to take decisions like this and also don't have the expertise or authority.

@WayOutOfMyDepth

Eg we called the ambulance service this week for a colleague who had took ill and none of us even knew his exact age or what medication he was on or if he had a diagnosed condition, and they ask you that and lots of other questions too. We don't have access to that kind of information. It just feels like there's gaps and also it feels like we've been left on our own.

HR and a Manager also wouldn't have access to most of that information.

There's plenty of small businesses that don't have a first aider on site.

I don't see how it's a huge thing to call an ambulance if someone is unwell. How is everyone so unwell so often? Call a manager on another line and get them to take the lead remotely.

I would add though, that you don't need to be senior or in any way first aid qualified to make a call to 999, so am a bit confused about your mention of that.

Do you fully appreciate that managers are just people too, and that they don't have magical information about people's heart medication at their fingertips, nor necessarily any more presence of mind in an emergency than someone on £18k a year? Possibly less, if they're back office and you are front line.

They should almost certainly have a first aider on site, so maybe a good outcome is one of you gets a day off for a course and a small pay bump. But that won't make a meaningful difference in most emergencies. If what you're looking for - and it feels like it is - is for the seniors to come in or get in trouble, or for a super adult person to come and sort out work troubles, I don't think this will have the impact you hope.

Ring the HSE they will give you more practical advice rather than on a forum.........

@WayOutOfMyDepth

Ok will do.

I guess I feel nervous because it seems expected that we'll just get on with it so it looks like I'm causing trouble.

But yeah essentially none of us who have been working throughout are paid enough to take decisions like this and also don't have the expertise or authority.

How much do you think the average first aider in an office gets on top of their basic?

The most I've ever seen was six pounds a month. It's not a senior role.

On the brighter side, though, having the employer pay for somebody to take the 3 day FAW course does make that person more appealing to another employer when it's put on the CV...

I'm a first aider at work. I have no idea what medication anyone is on unless they tell me at the time. HR or their manager wouldn't know, either.
Ambulance staff will be quite used to not having any details - they get called for strangers who have collapsed in the street.

When I called the ambulance for my mother, I wasn't able to tell them all the medication she was on or all her conditions, because she wouldn't share it with us, which was frustrating, but her choice.

Having said all that, if people are in the office, there should be a trained first aider and you should sleep be aware of how to contact them; in our case, there are names and phone numbers up on every noticeboard, and you can get the info online, too. (I have wondered how they're going to deal with this when we return to the office, as not everyone will return, because some are changing to home-based contracts. But that's not my problem.) HR and senior management are presumably contactable, but that's not the same as being on-site in an emergency. I would follow the advice about checking with HSE.

As for not wanting to do first aid - the reason I first did a course was because if I came across someone who needed help, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I had no idea what to do. I might not be able to save someone anyway, but I might be able to keep them hanging on till an ambulance gets there. I would hate someone to die when the main reason was my active choice to have gained no knowledge about how to help. Everyone should have basic first aid knowledge.

Like pp says you dont need expertise or authority to call an ambulance. Perhaps those colleagues at risk would feel safer I'd they wear medi alert jewellery, it tells the emergency services what they suffer with. How do the at risk colleagues feel about this, do they feel its unsafe. What action would you all take if there was a fire, break in or assault at work. Have you had training in personal safety.

A first aider learns to stop bleeding or deal with breathing / choking issues, will call 111/999, will fill in accident reports, call HR / manager etc. A first aider wouldn't know the age nor medication of every work colleague; I work with many clients in distant places and nobody would ever know what medications I take. Either the person themselves can advise or someone needs to get HR / manager to call next of kin, tell them the hospital picking up the injured person and then they go to provide the information. If they don't then the hospital will try to get details off whatever ICE contact is set up on their phone.

Fire wardens are usually per floor or other small area of the building, but first aiders are one per 5-50 working and an extra one per 50 after that. If under 5 are working then there may be no first aider, but you can ask a manager to ensure there is one rostered if it's over 5 in the office. It's not uncommon that you might call a first aider from another building, but it's reasonable to ask the manager to write down the process to follow for accidents if it differs from the one on the office first aid poster. If the team aren't competent enough to call another building nor 999 confidently, then it's very serious that they've been left without any supervision, but that whole situation all sounds a bit strange to be honest.

If what you're looking for - and it feels like it is - is for the seniors to come in or get in trouble, or for a super adult person to come and sort out work troubles, I don't think this will have the impact you hope.

Lol point taken. I guess it would just have been nice for them to have popped their head round the door once in the last 16 months while they've been merrily sending us out in a pandemic.

But they obviously don't feel the need.

I'll contact HSE, that's a good shout.

I disagree with many of these responses.

Where I work, managers (including myself and regardless of whether they can do all their work at home) are in on a rota to support staff who need to be onsite.

Surely it's not just about first aid/H&S etc? It's just good practice, fairness, teamwork, support and good management.

Your issue seems to be more about resentment that lowly paid, junior colleagues have to be in the office rather than senior staff. From a business POV this makes sense as senior staff are often doing office ‘managerial’ jobs rather than the hands on that you do.

Other than as PP mentioned having a trained first aider and the necessary equipment on site if someone has a ‘complex health condition’ it’s not anybody else’s problem. Calling an ambulance and basic first aid is all that’s needed which anybody can do. You don’t need a senior manager.
If people are really that unwell and constant collapsing I’d question whether they should even be in work. If they’re constantly getting injured hen it’s a workplace safety issue but again more to do with process rather than managerial supervision.

A first aide will just do what needs to be done before an ambulance arrives and the crew take over.
Being trained in first aid won't give you instant access to everyone's health status and meds.

Also to add there’s normally a team lead at least for people onsite - if you are all working at the same great without a single one of these then yes there’s a problem.
But again nothing to do with health conditions. It’s nobody’s job to ‘manage’ those

*same grade without anyone in charge

It would seem sensible to have first aiders at work.
I have never worked anywhere where the only first aiders are management.

If I was your manager I would pleased that you had brought a H&S issue to my attention.
But I would be very unimpressed that you weren't prepared to be part of the solution.

It sounds as though some of this is really resentment that you are in the office when management aren't?

It does sound as though you need trained first aiders and hopefully some of your colleagues would consider the training.

If the team aren't competent enough to call another building nor 999 confidently, then it's very serious that they've been left without any supervision

Ok so the situation is you've got a load of junior admin staff left to their own devices for over a year, someone's fitting on the floor, you think there's a first aider in the office down the road, someone goes on the intranet to find out his extension number and shouts it across the office, he doesn't answer, someone else rings the ambulance service who asks them all kinds of damn fool questions they don't have the answer to, no one's got a clue about what to do about the person who's fitting, someone starts a stopwatch on their phone because they vaguely know we should time it, another person runs and gets some paper towels to put under the person fitting, turns out the extension number is out of date so another person runs down the street, meanwhile the ambulance service is asking a load of questions that no one has answers to, someone else has started a stopwatch across the room, there's a bit of debate about which is accurate, everyone's moving chairs and tables out the way, the person who's run down the road finds out the first aider isn't in today, people in both offices are scrolling through their personal phones and Facebook messengers thinking who would be available, the guy who's been looking on teams throughout has been sending scattergun messages to whoever he can think of, the whole thing's a fucking mess and meanwhile the fitting isn't stopping, the ambulance won't get there for two hours and then you need to figure out how to call a taxi.

But I'm sure you would have handled it better.

Contacting HSE is a pretty nuclear option!