Us and them- the vaccine. So much pressure

[ToTheLetter01]

Before i begin, i am not an anti vaxxer. Me and my DS have had all our jabs and we also have annual flu jabs.
However i feel such hostility and pressure from people who have had their vaccine for me to have it. The reason i do not want it at this moment is just because its still in the experimental stage until 2023 and i would like to know more long term data.
This is my choice, its my body and everyone should have the choice. Choice to have the vaccine and choice to not. I do not shame nor ridicule anyone for having it or not.
However i have felt so much pressure from friends and others in the wider public, media, government.

I feel like the nation is becoming split between us and them. ( vaccinated and unvaccinated). With things becoming unfair for people. Eg. may be able to travel and not quarantine if had vaccines, care home workers may be forced to have the vaccine. Now i get the point of view of they have had it and may be more "safe". But how is the ok in a freedom and rights point of view. As i stated freedom to do what you want with your body.

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world. I miss my old life, i took all the freedom for granted. Its true that you don't realise how good it was until it's gone.
I don't want people to be hostile to me because of my choice to wait for long term data on the vaccine. Half of me wants to lie to people i've had it so they will not be stand off towards me.

My struggle with this is that you say it’s still in the experimental phase but all the scientists and medical experts say it’s not.

I think the issue @Rainbowqueeen is that a lot of people (myself included) question who these experts are and who they are connected to. We lack trust in experts, the government, media - etc. Often, in times of such widespread and common practice deceit and manipulation it's easier to trust yourself, your own mind and instinct.

@Dustyboots

I will research RTB - although have no idea whether what I'm reading is legitimate/ who it is/ where it's come from. I'll have to research that too I suppose.

I see what you mean about taking the emotional part out of making a decision - but my gut instinct/emotion has always been the best guide and when I've ignored it things have often gone spectacularly wrong.

I also know that research and money is put into places that are funded by those who are not always the most trustworthy.

Andrew Wakefield has been talked about a bit in this thread. He's been struck off etc I don't know much about him and have no opinion on him - other than that I wonder whether he was struck off because his opinion threatened people in high places/people who make money out of vaccines etc I don't know. But I don't believe he was evil or his work discounted because it was a load of rubbish. I work with kids with autism - I have a child with SN myself and know that vaccines have had an immediate effect on kids' development. There's no way his work should have been discredited in the way that it was. If anything more research should have been put in.

But that's another story - and clearly I do have an opinion on him.

andrew wakefield really wasn't struck off because his opinion threatened "big pharma"

It was one of the biggest scandals in modern medicine. So much research has been poured into understanding if vaccines cause autism or neurodevelopment conditions and they categorically do not.

If you're doing some reading then here's some links:

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02989-9
www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2020/02/17/would-you-trust-your-children-with-this-discredited-former-doctor/?sh=331a065d313b

@AppleCrumbleForBreakfast

I agree with your reasons for feeling you should be free to decline the vaccine and have more to throw into the mix. For me, the vaccine is not just a health matter. It is a philosophical and political matter too. I hate what the vaccines are leading too and can't think of another way to publicly refuse to play ball... Before Covid, how would those who are happy to take the vaccine have felt about the following:

That millions of people in the UK would be “unintentionally tracked” on their cell phones as government scientists collected data on their movements. Would you haven been ok with that? This happened to vaccinated people and I can't believe there hasn't been more fuss made! news.sky.com/story/covid-19-thousands-of-people-including-some-as-young-as-17-turn-up-for-walk-in-jabs-in-variant-hotspot-areas-12308808

What about vaccine health passports, which now seem inevitable. Two years ago, would people have been ok with the idea of having a vaccine to prove they were 'clean' in order to visit a country? When a test could do the same job?

What about turning up to be administered a vaccine without even knowing what what that vaccine would be? And having no say in the choice once you got there? Pre-covid, would you have been ok with having no say about what being pumped into your body?

What about vaccinating young people against a disease that has a tiny risk of affecting them and they don't really spread? (if the government are to be believed). If that had been suggested two years ago, would you have been ok with that? With the talk of vaccinating children, that seem to be the way we're headed.

Pre covid would you have been have been happy to take a drug knowing the manufacturers have total immunity from liability if something went wrong? And the government who are pushing it wouldn't compensate you for damages either? Would that not have seemed conflicting to you? If a vaccine is of minimal risk and the government was pushing it, would you not have thought they should take responsibility for the effects?

If you were offered a jab for another illness, but that jab didn't prevent you from catching that illness or passing it on it on, it merely reduced your symptoms (possibly making you asymptomatic and therefore an unknowing carrier) would that have made sense to you pre covid?

If two years ago you would have been fine with all this, then great, go for it! I will not judge or question your intelligence.

But if, like me, all this feels like a slow decline into a dystopian nightmare then you should be free to stand up to what's happening. You should be free to make a decision that opposes the war on our civil liberties, as a conscientious objector.

So long as you test regularly (say every 2 days) and follow (non invasive) protocols to prevent any spread, you should be free from any guilt too.

In fact, I will be incredibly grateful that you're standing up for our liberty in one of the only ways available, in the face of social coercion and pressure from a lying government.

Thank you.

But… there was no pandemic two years ago? It’s slightly relevant.

...because his opinion threatened people in high places/people who make money out of vaccines

this is also interesting because yes money played a role but it was himself who was benefitting

Before he published his 1998 study, Wakefield was hired by a lawyer Richard Barr, who was trying to build a lawsuit against vaccine makers. Barr paid Wakefield £435,000 (equal to $750,000 US dollars at the time) to help him build his case. Wakefield's co-authors were unaware of this contract.

And what happens if we all choose not to have it??
We would all be up the creek less one large paddle!!
however that was never going to be the case because of the way that compliance (as a personality trait) is distributed in the population. The majority comply a minority rebels, rebels may be inconvenient but they are part of human society and serve useful functions!
you should stop hating on us so much!
Or maybe you just enjoy frothing at the mouth like that😯 in which case crack on 👏

@Egeegogxmv

And what happens if we all choose not to have it?? We would all be up the creek less one large paddle!! however that was never going to be the case because of the way that compliance (as a personality trait) is distributed in the population. The majority comply a minority rebels, rebels may be inconvenient but they are part of human society and serve useful functions! you should stop hating on us so much! Or maybe you just enjoy frothing at the mouth like that😯 in which case crack on 👏

ah so the vaccinated are the compliant ones who go along with anything like sheep?

and the unvaccinated are the intelligent rebels

I think respect for people's decisions goes both ways, and you can't claim the injustice of being judged if that's your opinion on those who have chosen to be vaccinated, personally!

@MLMsuperfan

The timescales for the COVID vaccine trials were shortened but the number of people working on the trials and the study groups were far greater than normal.

I understand that greater numbers of people participating increases the reliability of the data that we do have. However we do not have long-term data because there is no one who has been vaccinated and then waited a long time to see what happens.

As an unvaccinated person, you present a danger to clinically vulnerable individuals. Those people are taking many, many precautions, but it is possible that the choice to remain unvaccinated means you might need to change your behavior as well. It’s not personal.

intelligent rebels
I didn't say or imply that rebels are intelligent

Thank you for the links @riveted1

I was really hoping that they might change my mind. But they really don't. It's just opinion and bias again.

But thank you.

I was just saying that some types tend to instinctively swim with the tide whilst other types instinctively swim against it, I wasn't framing it as an intelligence issue more of a 'that's just the way we roll' issue
A society where most people swam against the tide would not work, but it takes all sorts to make a world...we need some people who instinctively are contrarian

we need some people who instinctively are contrarian

Of course we do. It makes for a healthier society - even though it may be one in which we're not all vaccinated.

I think it must be very appealing and seductive to believe that this is about government control, a conspiracy, people are sheep, the vaccines are unnecessary etc etc - because then we can think that it’s not a pandemic and everything is fine, it’s all a big rouse.

But back in the real world things have changed, we can’t go backwards, we have to make hard decisions and it won’t be the same as before. But we can get closer to that by making scientific, evidence based decisions.

point me to some scientific evidence based research @MilesOfSand

I don't need stuff reported by the media or our deceitful government. I don't want stuff paid for by the pharmaceutical industry or rich elite joined at the hip with their Tory mates.

I want unbiased, reliable, trustworthy scientific evidence please - show me that and perhaps then I'll find the confidence to line up for this vaccination.

I was reading the other thread yesterday about carers being vaccinated and started to write a reply but deleted it because of the response I knew I would get.
OP I feel like you. I've had all three kids vaccinated with the standard childhood jabs as well as myself ( Heb b etc) as I am a nurse.
This one I will not have yet, in the future maybe. I'm in Australia and work for a private hospital where it is recommended that you get it but it's not mandatory. I also live in a regional town where we have not had Covid case for nearly a year.
The argument about protecting others is very valid especially as a nurse. However all surgeries are elective and patients are screened before arriving.
As one poster mentioned this pandemic is dividing people and causing so much hate and division between families and friends which is more serious than the risks of catching Covid. I'm aware it's a very different scenario in UK with contamination rates however division is happening here too.
Breakdown of relationships and community is devastating and it's surprising that people can't see that the government no matter where you live want to control us.
I'm not wearing a tin foil hat but the breakdown of society is happening right in front of us. We had so much "education" of tolerance and acceptance over the past ten years and now it's all back to shit again.
Mumsnet has become full of bullies and people being incredibly rude to each other. If you don't agree that's fine but don't bully people online.
That's what we spend so much money on each year educating our teens about but the same thing goes on here by the parents.
Only time will tell what will happen with Covid but I really hope we can discuss our views without being totally shut down and humiliated for making a choice. OP I'm with you.

@Dustyboots

point me to some scientific evidence based research *@MilesOfSand*

I don't need stuff reported by the media or our deceitful government. I don't want stuff paid for by the pharmaceutical industry or rich elite joined at the hip with their Tory mates.

I want unbiased, reliable, trustworthy scientific evidence please - show me that and perhaps then I'll find the confidence to line up for this vaccination.

No, it’s not my responsibility to do that. Take it or leave it 🤷‍♀️

@Dustyboots

I will research RTB - although have no idea whether what I'm reading is legitimate/ who it is/ where it's come from. I'll have to research that too I suppose.

I see what you mean about taking the emotional part out of making a decision - but my gut instinct/emotion has always been the best guide and when I've ignored it things have often gone spectacularly wrong.

I also know that research and money is put into places that are funded by those who are not always the most trustworthy.

Andrew Wakefield has been talked about a bit in this thread. He's been struck off etc I don't know much about him and have no opinion on him - other than that I wonder whether he was struck off because his opinion threatened people in high places/people who make money out of vaccines etc I don't know. But I don't believe he was evil or his work discounted because it was a load of rubbish. I work with kids with autism - I have a child with SN myself and know that vaccines have had an immediate effect on kids' development. There's no way his work should have been discredited in the way that it was. If anything more research should have been put in.

But that's another story - and clearly I do have an opinion on him.

Make a decision based on knowledge not out of fear. Fears can be legitimate but it's healthy to back this up with reason.

Yes you need to work out legitimacy and what holds value. Its an important skill.

I think challenging your own views and testing whether you really are right is really healthy in a situation where fear plays a role.

As for Andrew Wakefield, you said it yourself - you don't know much about him. Yet you have an opinion about power and what he said. That sets off alarm bells for me. Where is that coming from? Again it's a view about power and corruption which aligns with your open feelings and fears and mistrust. But you clearly don't know the story either - by your own admission. Where have you got the information you have about him? Is the MMR vaccine actually working etc etc? Are you double checking what you've heard again other sources? Again its fairly clear you aren't. Familiarise yourself with both angles of the story. Then form an opinion. Atm you are forming opinions then finding stuff to back up what you are saying. Thats upside down.

You've had a bad experience with healthcare, power and authority. I've no idea what that is. But it also makes you vulnerable to others exploiting that nefariously too. Please be mindful of others potentially weaponising your own fears against you. Or harming yourself unwittingly because that fear holds you back from looking after your health in the best way. This isnt purely about the vaccine. My suspicion is, this is about HCPs and scientists more widely. And my worry is you may have avoidance type behaviour going on as a result because you don't trust doctors generally.

I've had ongoing problems with this myself for years. I will not see a doctor alone and i have a habit of going mute even then. (Not ideal in a pandemic when you cant take someone and you cant speak by telephone).

Is this at the root of how you are feeling? A 'gut feeling' is often 'fight or flight' kicking in, so again slight alarm bells going off.

Ultimately the one person you have to answer to on this, is yourself. Not me. Tbh its probably better if you don't answer this to me. This is one for you, and you alone. Be honest with yourself. Its not about 'winning an argument on the internet' as debates like this can end up.

Disarm this bomb' and challenge yourself to read the other side and be critical of yourself. Am I right? Is this really the story I thought it was? Put yourself out of your comfort zone in terms of what your gut response is. What is the actual story? Understand why you are happier making 'gut decisions' rather than rational ones. What is driving that? Know this and you will make better decisions across the board.

@AmyVindaloo

I feel like this world is becoming some kind of dystopian world

This. I agree. It's become a crueller, colder world.

That’s what happens when we become consumed by individual rights do to what we damned please, instead of focussing on the rights which mean everybody can live in a safer society.

The sociology and psychology behind this pandemic is quite fascinating, but it’s definitely caused a negative shift now because people have reached their limit. After all the wonderful examples of human kindness and community spirit during lockdown #1, it seems the tide has turned all the way to nasty. It’s depressing.

Obviously not covid but smallpox.

I had to be vaccinated even though zero chance of carrying it. Why? No vaccine no visa. Just love the USA

@newtb

Obviously not covid but smallpox.

I had to be vaccinated even though zero chance of carrying it. Why? No vaccine no visa. Just love the USA

Likewise vaccinations for countries in Asia / Africa / South America - several vaccines are required to get a visa - typhoid, yellow fever, cholera, rabies etc - that wouldn’t be needed for a week in Cornwall or even Spain.

I have zero problem with other nations requiring proof of covid vaccination, it’s not the first and won’t be the last jab needed to have free movement around the world.

@Aldilogue very different issue, though, in Australia where the chances of you catching it or passing it on are virtually nil, so of course the risk of the vaccine is higher in comparison and there's a reasonable debate about having it or waiting (though there is probably also a reasonable debate about the families severed and longer term economic impact of keeping the border so restricted).

Here in the UK we've have a minimally functioning health service and school system and so many lives lost, serious illnesses caused and livelihoods destroyed. It makes refusing the vaccine a far more serious thing to do.

@ToTheLetter01 I’ve been on other threads. Saying the same thing but I’ll say it again here.

I scrambled to get the vaccine as I’m a carer. However I have two children and I do feel wary about vaccinating them, as I did with the MMR.

I don’t feel the vaccine is in the experimental stage. I feel enough robust testing, research has happened worldwide - and the risk of taking the vaccine far, far outweighs the risk of Covid.
People often think that their personal risk is low - and I’ve often heard quoted the average age of death is 83?? (not sure here??)
But the point here is NHS bed spaces. An 83 year old requires emergency care and a bed space. Even if they sadly die, they need and deserve to end their life as humanely as possible in an NHS hospital. This requires manpower, resources and all the restrictions etc needed to provide care for the patient.
Doctors/surgeons are called away from providing care to other patients to deal with the emergency. The result is a long waiting list for other NHS services/other services being difficult to manage/provide adequate care for the nation (cancer treatment/mental health/maternity) and this impacts young and old.

I think it is SO important to separate the government advice from the scientific advice - in terms of acting in the best interests of the public.

The best scientific advice worldwide, and in the most humane countries worldwide - is lockdown/restrictions/vaccines. The countries with a minimalist approach have not fared well.

And the reason we did not fare well is because we did not lockdown early enough - or when science was advising us to do so.

I would argue that WE - the majority of the UK have voted in the Tories at the last election. Not me personally - but we/the UK.

I would argue there is an individualistic/altruistic side to human nature and governments. We tend to elect in a cyclical left/right - depending on needs of society at the time of election. Left = altruistic, right = individualistic.

Our problem is we had a Tory government when Covid struck. They had not supported the NHS sufficiently - and were too focussed on that balance between saving the economy/ delaying lockdown.

I think - in hindsight - had we lockdowned earlier/had a better resourced/well managed NHS we would have fared a lot better. And normality would have returned at an earlier date.

Had we had a more altruistic government in power - we would have fared better.

We have to listen to the science.

I also think we need more altruism, and a cohesive sense of togetherness - however shit the government have been.

And we need to vote better in the future.

If you decide not to take the vaccine, I think you need to take extra care around other people. Think of it less in terms of personal risk, but reducing the infection rate for society as a whole.

I think we are in a difficult limbo situation at the moment. Not enough data to be sure that hospitals won’t fill up to unmanageable levels again.

But I have my fingers and toes crossed that enough people have been vaccinated, and we will be ok.

Make a decision based on knowledge not out of fear. Fears can be legitimate but it's healthy to back this up with reason.

I agree with this. Although it does go both ways. The decision to be vaccinated can be based on fear just as the decision not to be vaccinated may be. Some younger/healthy people are disproportionately afraid of covid. Their fear of the virus is driving their decision to be vaccinated - or their fear of not being able to travel, or fear of being ostracised if they don’t have it. Is that right?

I'm not afraid of covid. I've had it. I've been double vaccinated.
However I am afraid of the disruption is causes. The problems in education, the lack of freedom for elderly people and young people, the backlog at the nhs.