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Sky news article about delta. Deaths after 2 vaccines

145 replies

Iremembertheelderlykoreanlady · 11/06/2021 12:41

This is the bit that scares me, and makes me think the "end" is no longer in sight.

As of 7 June, there have been 42 deaths in England of people confirmed as having the Delta variant and who died within 28 days of testing positive.

Of these people, 23 were unvaccinated, seven had had their first dose more than 21 days before and 12 had their second dose more than 14 days before.

Unless my maths is way off that means 28% of people who have died with delta variant have had 2 doses of the vaccine.

The vaccines were supposed to be our way out!

I'm not one for scaremongering so im sorry if this post comes across like that but I feel so so down today. I want a light at the end of the tunnel!

Full article:

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-delta-variant-60-more-transmissible-than-alpha-and-more-resistant-to-vaccines-phe-reports-12330068

OP posts:
bollihigh · 11/06/2021 23:12

@thewayyougo - take care - people do you care, keep working on it with your help. Everything ends in the end for everybody but you're not there yet. Flowers Flowers Flowers

SonnetForSpring · 11/06/2021 23:16

I think the point @thewayyougo was trying to make is some people find the restrictions affect their mental health and others find lifting the restrictions affect their mental health. So you can't just lump lifting restrictions as being good for peoples mental health. It really depends on individual circumstances.

winched · 11/06/2021 23:34

@herecomesthsun Most people are having rational and nuanced debates. They will never agree for the exact point I'm about to make....

I would actually like not to get ill.

Not a priority for me.

I would like my immune compromised DC to actually be offered a vaccine and not be in a classroom with 30 other kids waiting for covid to hit the school.

Not a priority for me.

From someone else's POV that's a pretty selfish attitude, yes. But consider this...

I would like to open my business and have a chance to earn money before I lose my house

Not a priority for you.

I would like my children to be in school with all restrictions lifted and access to normal support because they have ADHD / dyslexia / autism, have fallen behind, and this is seriously affecting their mental health and wellbeing.

Not a priority for you.

FYI poverty takes 10 years off your life, people with ASD are 9x more likely to die from suicide, 1 in 4 females with ADHD attempt suicide - this isn't a minor inconvenience VS death scenario... this is risks to years of life for different sections of society. Same storm different boats.

The basic point is people have priorities based on what they perceive to be important to them, and what they perceive to be a threat to them. This has always been the case and will continue to be the case long after. I have 65+ shielded relatives who were back at the bingo long before my children were allowed to set foot in school. That was obviously a priority for them. No doubt yours are different.

It's for that reason your view is restrictions should only be lifted after careful consideration of all the data, and my view is that restrictions should only be implemented after careful consideration of all the data. I believe 'normal' should be the default and restrictions implemented as a last resort and only when absolutely necessary. I believe 'the data' cannot be based purely on covid data and disregard the rest of society.

A pp said my analogies didn't work because a nut allergy isn't contagious, but they are missing the point the analogy was making. We can't close down every food manufacturing facility and open them in stages only when the data on allergic reactions says so, while completely disregarding the effects the closures have on everyone from the owners to the suppliers to the people needing to buy food now dying of starvation. That applies if there are 500 people with allergies or 500,000 - the country still needs food.

If 500,000 people getting ill at once would overwhelm the NHS, then yes, close them. But that is an emergency, last resort measure that must be reversed as a priority and at the first available opportunity to do so. That does not mean letting the 500,000 die, because who cares. Their health and wellbeing is a priority the same as every human in the country.

The 'reversed as a priority and at the first available opportunity' changed because we could wait a few months for vaccines, and I think the vast majority of people understood that. Now the vaccines are here, people are understandably frustrated that the game has changed to 'reverse in an extremely cautious way' by decree of a few vulnerable or anxious posters on MN backed up by scientists who are only looking at covid data.

All that said, I can completely imagine a situation where my child is the vulnerable one, and I accept my views would be much closer to yours. When your child is the one at risk of becoming ill, you wish you could stop the world for them. As a mother, that's how I felt when mine was out of school, unable to cope, getting worse by the day and the rest of the world seemed happy to let that happen. It's a helpless, frustrating feeling and I sympathise.

But putting myself in your shoes only helps to understand your views, it unfortunately doesn't change mine. We can have all the nuanced debate in the world but our fundamental beliefs are shaped by the needs of ourselves and those closest to us. Humans have always been this way - head over to the thread where people would rather vaccinate their healthy 12 year olds while CEV and healthcare workers in other countries die for evidence of this in the wild.

herecomesthsun · 11/06/2021 23:47

It isn't an either / or however.

I have a dc awaiting assessment for ASD/ Adhd - I am really pleased in many ways they are in school from an education point of view. (This dc is also immune suppressed, so being back at school is not so good on that account.)

And, if we bugger up the reopening, it will be poor for business. So not so good for you.

As Chris Whitty says, health and the economy go together, it isn't an either /or.

Fortunately, the government have taken this increasingly on board.

winched · 12/06/2021 00:23

@herecomesthsun I was just using examples. Usually people have a main priority. If your child was not cev, no doubt you would want him in school as a priority since being at home is often unbearable for adhd.

And, if we bugger up the reopening, it will be poor for business. So not so good for you.

Maybe. Maybe not. My friends in certain US states who've had businesses open throughout would disagree with you.

As Chris Whitty says, health and the economy go together, it isn't an either /or.

Yes, because we all trust Santa Claus to deliver Halloween?? Confused

Anyway... I can't see them tightening restrictions again other than very localised & temporary measures so no point debating as if lockdown is imminent. Hope your child gets a speedy assessment and the help they need if required Smile

herecomesthsun · 12/06/2021 00:32

I am not talking about going further into lockdown at all, just about coming out very very carefully, as it looks likely that we will.

I think it's very honest to discuss monetary issues underlying belief systems. That is I think often the bottom dollar as it were, though people usually don't say as much.

I don't get the business about Santa Claus. I think Chris Whitty has generally been right about a lot of things.

Good luck.

Delatron · 12/06/2021 00:36

I think the point is Chris Whitty is concerned with public health not the economy....

herecomesthsun · 12/06/2021 00:45

The 2 are intertwined and inextricable. If this government could have got away with piling the bodies high and ploughing on, that is what they would have done. They are libertarians who want the economy to do well and wouldn't much care if a few thousand extra people died at the expense of that.

We have the current restrictions because the government were left with little choice. You can't run businesses with a collapsed health service etc etc

Delatron · 12/06/2021 07:45

Yep.

Didn’t say they weren’t. Just explaining the Chris Whitty analogy. He is personally charged with looking after public health. So he is not an economist. It’s not his job to balance the economic arguments.

Delatron · 12/06/2021 07:47

But right now we don’t have a collapsed health service and with effective vaccines something would have to go very wrong for the NHS to be under pressure from Covid again.

The backlog of all the other illnesses left untreated? That’s a different matter..

herecomesthsun · 12/06/2021 08:57

If we have another big surge of covid on unlocking, that will set back all the other specialities, mental health etc as the NHS is forced into covid crisis management. See the Chris Hopson discussion I've been posting.

Better to avoid that if we can.

Delatron · 12/06/2021 09:03

@herecomesthsun I’m replying to your post regarding Chris Whitty. That’s all. You said you didn’t understand the analogy and I explained it.

I know you want to keep restrictions in place for much longer than many. That’s your view. Many feel different. It’s all about balance.

MummyPop00 · 12/06/2021 09:09

I thought those in the know told us from the outset that Coronaviruses mutate slowly?

Let’s hear from the new chair of SAGE, Donald Rumsfeld:

‘As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns-the ones we don't know we don't know'.

SonnetForSpring · 12/06/2021 09:16

@MummyPop00

I thought those in the know told us from the outset that Coronaviruses mutate slowly?

Let’s hear from the new chair of SAGE, Donald Rumsfeld:

‘As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns-the ones we don't know we don't know'.

It depends on how many people become infected. Hence why keeping case numbers down. The more infections, the more replication, the more chances for mutations. The more selection pressure, the chances mutations who can survive those selection pressures will become dominant.
lightand · 12/06/2021 09:16

Why oh why do people still think "there is a way out".
Some of us worked out a full year ago that there is not.

MummyPop00 · 12/06/2021 09:42

@Sonnetforspring

The common cold is a coronavirus is it not?

Still didn’t stop the proclamations about Coronaviruses in general did it?

Always a caveat with these know all scientists isn’t there?

SonnetForSpring · 12/06/2021 09:43

I don't understand your point or who your anger is directed at.

MummyPop00 · 12/06/2021 09:46

@SonnetForSpring

Point is very simple. Don’t take everything the scientific community says as being gospel.

Emma2021 · 12/06/2021 13:55

Interesting thread and I'd just read the same story just now from the BBC posted yesterday but just read.
TBH, it shook me up though we are still being very careful, we have let our guard down a little but no pubs/supermarkets etc but have been to ikea and mataln during the week in a so-called off peak period.

This delta variant, Israel used Pifzer for all, how is that jab respsonding to this variant.

Mny are saying it as the "elserly" that got their jabs first so they could have died of something else they say - what is your defintion of "elderly as you have to work until you are 66 atm i think and many in their 60's got their second jabs months ago.
Thanks
ps - the gov needs to do the right thing imo and even when the lockdown is lifted IMHO it would be sensible to wear masks in shops/public transport etc until we know we have really beaten this thing.

wintertravel1980 · 12/06/2021 15:57

A thread from the mathematician on what the PHE numbers actually tell us:

twitter.com/JamesWard73/status/1403493925466296333

...Applying those adjustments, I get new estimates as follows:
- VE (vaccine efficacy) vs being a case: ~35% after 1 dose and ~80% after 2 doses
- VE vs. hospitalisation and death: ~80% after 1 dose and >95% after 2 doses.

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