Sky news article about delta. Deaths after 2 vaccines

[Iremembertheelderlykoreanlady]

This is the bit that scares me, and makes me think the "end" is no longer in sight.

As of 7 June, there have been 42 deaths in England of people confirmed as having the Delta variant and who died within 28 days of testing positive.

Of these people, 23 were unvaccinated, seven had had their first dose more than 21 days before and 12 had their second dose more than 14 days before.

Unless my maths is way off that means 28% of people who have died with delta variant have had 2 doses of the vaccine.

The vaccines were supposed to be our way out!

I'm not one for scaremongering so im sorry if this post comes across like that but I feel so so down today. I want a light at the end of the tunnel!

Full article:

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-delta-variant-60-more-transmissible-than-alpha-and-more-resistant-to-vaccines-phe-reports-12330068

I think this sample size is too small to make too many assumptions to be honest.

[quote Iremembertheelderlykoreanlady]This is the bit that scares me, and makes me think the "end" is no longer in sight.

As of 7 June, there have been 42 deaths in England of people confirmed as having the Delta variant and who died within 28 days of testing positive.

Of these people, 23 were unvaccinated, seven had had their first dose more than 21 days before and 12 had their second dose more than 14 days before.

Unless my maths is way off that means 28% of people who have died with delta variant have had 2 doses of the vaccine.

The vaccines were supposed to be our way out!

I'm not one for scaremongering so im sorry if this post comes across like that but I feel so so down today. I want a light at the end of the tunnel!

Full article:

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-delta-variant-60-more-transmissible-than-alpha-and-more-resistant-to-vaccines-phe-reports-12330068[/quote]
But they might actually have died of cancer and just had Covid. These stats are useless.

I can think of two people in their nineties who have died in hospital, having had both jabs, who had positive Covid tests when they died. Both caught it in hospital. Both were terminal and would have died regardless of long term conditions. The Covid was only picked up because of routine testing.

42323 people had tested positive for the Delta variant at the last count. Of those, 42 have died. Of those, 12 had had their second dose more than 14 days before.

Apart from the fact that maximum protection isn't achieved until 21 days after the second dose (so if these patients had had it more recently than that they'd still be vulnerable), there's no way of knowing if those patients had other vulnerabilities.

Surely what we should be looking at is that out of 42323 positive cases, there were 42 deaths and 12 where patients had been fully vaccinated (possibly more recently than three weeks ago/had underlying issues which caused complications from covid).

12 out of 42323.

I'd suggest that means the vaccinations are doing their job pretty well.

New contraindication for AZ: capillary leak syndrome

www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/vaxzevria-ema-advises-against-use-people-history-capillary-leak-syndrome

As far as I was aware PHE had said there was little reduction in efficacy after dose 2.

[quote DarceyDashwood]@PicsInRed while I totally agree that we do need perspective and/or more information, I am 42 and had my second dose 2 weeks ago. I am not elderly, vulnerable or in ill health (I received a spare dose). So we can’t actually make that assumption about these people.[/quote]
I'm a month post double vaxxed. Im not old, ill or frail. I am a carer for disabled son.

So unless they say the age of those double vaxxed , it's all just assumption full stop. Which includes assuming they was at death door anyway, waiting for a slight gust to blow them over into the after life.

I still cant summon up any new fear for myself. But maybe this isnt we are all doomed, or nothing to see here. Maybe it's in the gray area. Maybe double vaxxed only protects you a extra 75%.

We will soon find out that's for sure. But it's not black or white. Whatever way people wish it falls, it is what is and right now we dont know. Hold fire before licking door knobs or taking the cyanide pills. You might well be wrong either way

I know that in an ideal world the vaccine would be 100% effective, but all the above comments trying to justify deaths among fully vaccinated sound like double standards to me, because most deaths from covid (pre vax) were also within 28 days of a positive test and therefore possibly not even related, and were almost all in the elderly or medically vulnerable people. So either you are wanting the vaccine to protect these people or you accept that it isn’t protecting them. You can’t have it both ways! If it isn’t protecting them then what the Jeff is the point in having them at all?!

@Hax

I’m also wondering if they were very old, frail and in hospital for something else, picked up Covid and it’s unclear why they died

I've just read that NHS England have now been told to count cases aquired while in hospital separately from patients admitted because of covid.

Hmm. Even if they catch covid after initial admission, surely if covid kills them then that is not to be discounted.

I don't trust government not to try to massage the figures to make it appear better than it is.

I really wish I trusted the government to care about people's lives

I’ve copied this from a poster over in the Good News thread. The source is an article from the Telegraph -

“Just five percent of Indian variant infections are in people who have been full vaccinated, latest figures show.

A Public Health England (PHE) briefing on the new variant that has been sweeping Britain, also known as the Delta variant, shows that the disease is predominantly affecting people who have yet to receive the jab.

Out of 33,206 cases sequenced since February 1, just 1,785 were in people who had been fully vaccinated and only 62 ended up being admitted to hospital compared with 397 of unvaccinated individuals.

The new data also show that the death rate is still very low with just 0.1 per cent of people catching the variant going on to die - 1 in 1,000 - although this may increase in the coming weeks because of the lag between cases, admissions and deaths.

In comparison, the death rate for people catching the Kent (or Alpha) variant is 1.7 per cent - 17 in 1,000.

So far there have been just 42 deaths from the Delta variant, and only 12 in fully vaccinated people. NHS leaders have previously said that those dying after being fully vaccinated are also suffering from "profound co-morbidities".

I don’t know. Isn’t it an important distinction? Whether you catch Covid in the community and it becomes so severe you are admitted to hospital. Or you are in hospital for something else and happen to catch Covid there (but you are not hospitalised from Covid).

I think this is particularly important with children. Lots of hysteria that the new variant is putting children in hospital with Covid (yet no data to back this up). When most likely they are in hospital for something else, routine op for example and they happen to test positive whilst they are there.

This distinction is very important as it shows us whether Covid is causing severe disease either in vaccinated people (it shouldn’t be in the whole) or in younger people (again it shouldn’t be).

@VanCleefArpels

We all know that even double jabbing doesn’t not give 100% protection against death or serious illness. No vaccine does. By definition those already double jabbed are in the high risk categories likely to have co-morbidity. So you are being unnecessarily gloomy

No she's asking a very sensible question.(I am in pretty good health generally, but would potentially be very vulnerable to covid, so I have some skin in this. I was asking the same question on the data thread earlier.)

We were told initially that no one who was double vaccinated had died (when deaths were quite high).

We are now told that 28% of deaths are of doubly vaccinated people.

Hopefully, it will transpire that there is an easy explanation such as all the deaths occurred in the 14-21 day window; but we really need to be asking these questions (especially if we are in the risk groups or have close family in them).

@Inastatus

I’ve copied this from a poster over in the Good News thread. The source is an article from the Telegraph -

“Just five percent of Indian variant infections are in people who have been full vaccinated, latest figures show.

A Public Health England (PHE) briefing on the new variant that has been sweeping Britain, also known as the Delta variant, shows that the disease is predominantly affecting people who have yet to receive the jab.

Out of 33,206 cases sequenced since February 1, just 1,785 were in people who had been fully vaccinated and only 62 ended up being admitted to hospital compared with 397 of unvaccinated individuals.

The new data also show that the death rate is still very low with just 0.1 per cent of people catching the variant going on to die - 1 in 1,000 - although this may increase in the coming weeks because of the lag between cases, admissions and deaths.

In comparison, the death rate for people catching the Kent (or Alpha) variant is 1.7 per cent - 17 in 1,000.

So far there have been just 42 deaths from the Delta variant, and only 12 in fully vaccinated people. NHS leaders have previously said that those dying after being fully vaccinated are also suffering from "profound co-morbidities".

That's not reassuring if one has a comorbidity though, is it?

DH intensive care consultant.

No emergency planning happening whatsoever.

Huge teaching hospital.

We are now told that 28% of deaths are of doubly vaccinated people.

If vaccination uptake in the vulnerable population is high (which it is), at some point 99% of deaths might be double vaccinated people. What we need to compare is how many deaths we might have seen without vaccinations vs 12 deaths in vaccinated population reported so far.

We do not have sufficient data to perform this analysis. PHE appear to be working on it as we speak.

@SexTrainGlue

If they were very old, or very 'frail' (CEV?) then their jabs would have been in groups 1-6 and so it would have been well after 14, and indeed 21, days from their second.

Jab immunity isn't 100% so it looks like if you get it despite the jab (whatever your age or co-morbidity) it can still be serious

not everyone in groups 1 - 6 is old or frail...

@Malteser71

DH intensive care consultant.

No emergency planning happening whatsoever.

Huge teaching hospital.

Are to conclude that it's not necessary or he works at a shit hospital?

You need to give us some context for that to mean anything at all

@Malteser71

DH intensive care consultant.

No emergency planning happening whatsoever.

Huge teaching hospital.

unwise, but nothing would surprise me re poor planning really

NHS leaders have previously said that those dying after being fully vaccinated are also suffering from "profound co-morbidities".

This is no different to pre vaccination, or in currently unvaccinated. Those who die are predominantly very old, frail or suffering from co-morbidities. The vaccines were supposed to protect these people. If they aren’t doing that then why are they being rolled out to almost every person in the country, leading to the (in my view unacceptable) collateral damage and deaths of previously healthy younger individuals due to vax reactions, clots, heart damage etc.

I remember Chris Whitby talking about ‘at some point, we will have to agree on an acceptable number of deaths.’

I think many, many people struggle with this.

‘It’s not good if you are the one that dies.’

And yet still they drive cars, etc.

Whitty 🙄

Group 6 was defined pretty conservatively. Realistically young people remain at relatively low risk even when they have got vulnerabilities. For instance, a 20 year old with an organ transplant is running the same low risk of dying from Covid as a healthy 40 year old.

Here is the link to assess individual Covid risks based on medical history:

alama.org.uk/covid-19-medical-risk-assessment/

The ‘no emergency planning’ means that their numbers are incredibly low. People are coming into wards but not going into ITU.

‘Emergency planning’ means drawing up plans to divert other staff to help man ITU. Changing Shift rotas, repurposing operating theatres.

Like last time, and the time before.

I guess (a) they know what to do and (b) they aren’t doing it because they aren’t expecting it.

I personally don't find it reassuring that only elderly and medically vulnerable people are hospitalised or die after double vaccination. Those are the very people we hoped the vaccine would offer a high level of protection. If a large number of them are still going to end up in hospital then we return to the original problem of the system being overwhelmed.

If a large number of them are still going to end up in hospital...

The point is the number is not expected to be high.

Imperial model from early 2020 predicted anywhere between 250,000 (with mitigations) to 500,000 (unmitigated) deaths. If vaccines are 95% protective against deaths, this number goes down to 12,500 - 25,000, a flu season level.