If you personally are against the vaccine AND against lockdowns what do you propose instead?

[Waveafterwaveslowlydrifting]

I've seen the same people who initially panicked, like many of us, about the situation in Italy in Feb 2020, and declared that something must be done, who are against lockdowns and also anti vax. So they didn't want people dying in the streets, but also didn't want the solutions that the government proposed. What did they want? What do they want now?

My own stance on the pandemic response is:
The government are a bunch of incompetent, self serving tossers who gave ppe contracts to their mates etc. They didn't make timely decisions and are spineless and people pleasing. The nightingales were an expensive publicity stunt. The way they have decimated education is shocking. I'm not saying other parties would have done much better.

I'm having my second AZ today and am certainly not antivax.

I know massive mistakes have been made. I think vaccination is the way out of this mess. I think the original lockdown was needed but should have been shorter. The NHS is woefully underfunded and shouldn't need 'protecting' the way the tory slogans say. Surely shutting down the economy for so long is worse personally for the tories than the financial gain they have made from ppe contracts etc?

If you don't believe vaccination is a solution for covid, and neither is lockdown, what would you want to happen instead?

It’s worth adding that simply allowing the virus to run wild is of course an option, but it’s one that places considerable strain on health services, again to the detriment of everyone.

So essentially, if people who are against lockdown and against vaccines think we should let virus take natural course, are they willing to accept the impact on healthcare services (in terms of Covid treatment, long Covid treatment, and delays in treating other conditions as Covid absorbs resources) as a consequence?

Exactly.

I think some people aren't against vaccination per se but think the vaccine can be more dangerous than the disease. I'm mid 30s so my risk of dying from covid is low, however I've had chronic illness and very poor immunity from flu and colds, tonsillitis, laryngitis, asthma. I'm a teacher and come into contact with superspreaders all day. I have the flu vaccine every year.

Also, say a 20 year old in perfect health refuses the vaccine, fair enough for them as its their choice, I wouldn't push a vaccine on anyone. But they could transmit it to others still. Vaccination helps the whole population surely?

My friend thinks healthy young adults being jabbed is ludicrous. Children more so. She also thinks lockdown is a way for the government to distract us, keeping us busy arguing about petty rules whilst the surreptitiously put through laws to control us by having biometric profiles, through vaccine passports. Taking away our freedom.

I think, the jab has been tested, blood clots are more likely if you're on the pill than after AZ jab and nobody ever questions that. Jab the consenting adults for now, lockdown was necessary initially but not any more, end lockdown and let's get on with life.

I have wondered this too OP. My views are very similar to what you have outlined in your post.

I know people who are antvax and anti lockdown apparently because they care about everyone and not just people at risk of Covid. However I would love to know what these people think should have happened.

Without a lockdown the nhs would be in an even worse state than it is now.

I know. Yes the government are corrupt, I can't support them in any way but I don't think they are behaving in a totally evil way. It's so paranoid to be so worried about being tracked and watched when if you use a phone, your data is already used by a huge number of companies. It's creepy in itself but that's modern life.

Maybe being antivax is a way of opting out of the scariness of modern life by being able to say no to something.

I'm having my 2nd jab today and I'm so relieved. Long covid scares me after having ME in the past. I never want to feel like that again.

The anti vaxxers that I know believe that Covid is a hoax and not real. So I guess they want us to go back to normal.

Some people don't want the vaccine but are happy for other people to take it so they can get back to normal.

Personally I'm anti lockdown but I'm having my vaccines.

They tend to.be healthy so don't believe that a collapsed NHS will affect them personally. They also tend to be of the belief that cancer treatments etc stopped because of lockdown rather than because the NHS barely had the capacity to deal with emergency care, nevermind that infection control would have been impossible when there was no testing capacity or PPE available. They scream about every death caused by the overburdened health system while simultaneously shouting that covid deaths don't count if the person had preexisting conditions. Their wish is for us to protect the vulnerable and let rip without any explanation of how to protect the vulnerable when large numbers of doctors, nurses and carers are infected.

I agree. I think the NHS needs a complete overhaul.

Also, lateral flow tests are hardly better than useless and should never have been made widely available or suggested for regular use.

They are eugenicists.

They actually didn't care that the weak (of all ages) are likely to die, and that there is a cull of the elderly.

Who are eugenicists @trollopolis?

Antivax + antilockdowners or the government?

I'm anti lockdown but pro Vax. I wish they'd pushed money into NHS rather than test and trace, extended furlough etc. I feel everything this government do they do for an ideological agenda rather than what's necessary. It's not just ppe contracts their mates will be making money off, there will be people making millions off how trade has changed as a result of Brexit and covid, how work and education has changed - I wouldn't be surprised if Boris had a mate with zoom shares and there's no doubt theyll use the precarity of the NHS to 'overhaul' it and not in a good way.

@QueenStromba

They tend to.be healthy so don't believe that a collapsed NHS will affect them personally. They also tend to be of the belief that cancer treatments etc stopped because of lockdown rather than because the NHS barely had the capacity to deal with emergency care, nevermind that infection control would have been impossible when there was no testing capacity or PPE available. They scream about every death caused by the overburdened health system while simultaneously shouting that covid deaths don't count if the person had preexisting conditions. Their wish is for us to protect the vulnerable and let rip without any explanation of how to protect the vulnerable when large numbers of doctors, nurses and carers are infected.

This

And

@trollopolis
They actually didn't care that the weak (of all ages) are likely to die, and that there is a cull of the elderly.

This

Along with a belief that everyone else just hadn't woken up to the truth and lack the ability to think critically.

@Waveafterwaveslowlydrifting

Who are eugenicists *@trollopolis*?

Antivax + antilockdowners or the government?

Those who are anti infection controls during pandemic of course.

Not the government.

Even governments from parties which champion business and th economy above all else, and stand for minimal central regulation and small government, have not been that heartless.

They scream about every death caused by the overburdened health system while simultaneously shouting that covid deaths don't count if the person had preexisting conditions

This is so true. They don't seem to see how weird a level of double think is necessary to see it simultaneously as a tragedy that people are not coming forward with symptoms suggestive of cancer so are going to die. But if they were diagnosed and in active treatment, they would be CEV and going to die anyhow.

OK I thought that's what you meant!

Absolutely the government are profiting from other contracts. Tutoring for catch up in schools. My class would benefit far more from more individual and small group time with me, their class teacher, through smaller class size than an hour a week with a possibly unqualified tutor who doesn't know them or care about their outcomes.

Test and trace is a useless pile of wank. NHS needs a massive cash injection and far fewer managers aka paper pushers. Better paid and valued nurses. Etc.

I agree with much of the issues outlined in the OP but I have views about how restrictions could be differently implemented. I’m not anti vaccination (have had both doses), so this thread isn’t really aimed at me, but it doesn’t sound like anyone on this thread really wants to hear views from those people, you just want to let off steam.

I tend to agree @Trewawgy, if it had been framed as “what are our alternatives” then it feels less like challenging a particular group of people and more about discussing the merits (or lack of) of other options

They actually didn't care that the weak (of all ages) are likely to die, and that there is a cull of the elderly.

This. My mil is one. She thinks old and ill people need to die off. A virus is a natural occurrence and that we can’t do anything about it. Anti lock down, anti mask, anti vax and hasn’t needed the use of the health service for years because ‘alternative medicine’. I think she was shocked into taking the virus a bit more seriously when her own son was nearly hospitalised and ill for months afterwards. However I find people like her are always the ones to get it very mildly, annoyingly. They basically think it won’t affect them or their immediate family and can’t see past that.

One thing covid has shown (though actually this was pretty clear with brexit before it) is just how people are certain that their view is logical and unemotional and they are clear-sighted about the true picture, on all sides of the arguments about lockdowns, how to manage covid, when restrictions should be lifted, and so on. I don’t imagine for a moment that I’m somehow unbiased, or that I somehow have clear insight into everything. It’s so easy to say “those people over there, they are stupid and illogical and bigoted”

I totally agree with what you said in your first post . I believe the Government were totally reckless and not in control at the start of the pandemic . For that they will pay the price .

Not me personally, but I know a group people who are vegan, very clean living, very fit, anti lockdown and anti vaccine. They seem to believe modern medicine full stop is not fit for purpose anymore because of our ageing population. They believe the whole of society is sick and lives wrong and doesn’t take responsibility for their health. They also profess they won’t want to be kept alive unnecessarily in old age by the NHS. So their solution is that everyone needs to change their lifestyle and thinking completely. I am pretty sure they would leave the country if forced to have a vaccine and go live abroad.

This. I work with people living with cancer, organ transplants, immune conditions, etc. All have families who love them, some have young kids, some are breadwinners who have lost careers over the lockdowns. We do our best to make things more bearable but some have had a truly shit time.

It seems that people taking this anti vaccine anti lockdown view are effectively expecting the CEV to lock themselves away indefinitely or risk severe illness and death. In my town they used to crowd together without masks intimidating passers by. Some of my clients were frightened to go shopping because of them.

It’s not acceptable in a compassionate society is it?

I’m not an “anti vaxxer”. I won’t be having this one yet, as I’d like to see some long term safety date first.

As to your question, I was an advocate of the original idea of offering the vaccine to the elderly and vulnerable (ie. those that are likely to become very ill or die from covid) and then opening up.

Matt Hancock even said he would “cry freedom” once that population had been vaccinated.

That we’re now still living with restrictions and under a government who want to vaccinate healthy children (and remember, no healthy child has died in the UK from covid) is mind boggling to me.

Yes @Sunnyfreezesushi I have come across similar people. Some of the people I know like this believe that all people with cancer and other chronic diseases have them because of their reckless lifestyles / wrong diet etc, effectively that it is their own fault that they are CEV. I can’t get my head around it.