If you personally are against the vaccine AND against lockdowns what do you propose instead?

[Waveafterwaveslowlydrifting]

I've seen the same people who initially panicked, like many of us, about the situation in Italy in Feb 2020, and declared that something must be done, who are against lockdowns and also anti vax. So they didn't want people dying in the streets, but also didn't want the solutions that the government proposed. What did they want? What do they want now?

My own stance on the pandemic response is:
The government are a bunch of incompetent, self serving tossers who gave ppe contracts to their mates etc. They didn't make timely decisions and are spineless and people pleasing. The nightingales were an expensive publicity stunt. The way they have decimated education is shocking. I'm not saying other parties would have done much better.

I'm having my second AZ today and am certainly not antivax.

I know massive mistakes have been made. I think vaccination is the way out of this mess. I think the original lockdown was needed but should have been shorter. The NHS is woefully underfunded and shouldn't need 'protecting' the way the tory slogans say. Surely shutting down the economy for so long is worse personally for the tories than the financial gain they have made from ppe contracts etc?

If you don't believe vaccination is a solution for covid, and neither is lockdown, what would you want to happen instead?

Data*

I disagree on a couple of points but know I’m in the majority.

Ppe was urgently needed and usual sources unable to provide enough. Who do you buy from Dave down the road or a friend you’ve known and trusted for years? Yes, usually you’d go out to tender but there was no time.

I work in a hospital and there were times we were going to run out of gowns within 24 hours and we were nervous but each time we escalated to the central phone number they delivered. We never knew what we were getting or when but actually they came through. I had doctors shouting at me there was no ppe and we were out of masks so I marched them to the additional storage to show them to stop believing the media. We even had enough to send to some local care homes.

Things kept changing in the early days but I kind of expect that. We have a flu pandemic plan but that wasn’t quite right for covid and had to evolve. I don’t think the government has been incompetent. I think they had exceptionally hard decisions to make and tried to balance the economy with health (both covid and non covid). Have all the decisions been right? No, but expecting perfect government during this time is unrealistic. They have been open and we have so much data available.

NHS needs a massive cash injection and far fewer managers aka paper pushers. Better paid and valued nurses. Etc.

This makes me so cross. I’m an nhs manager and we’ve been doing all the planning and communicating to ensure nurses and doctors can do their jobs safely! We are one team and if all the managers left the hospitals wouldn’t be safe. I spend my work supporting clinician and developing models of working that work for patients and clinicians. All the virtual appointment systems that meant those unable to have face to face meetings and kept people safe and away from hospitals; managers did that! Throughout the pandemic the managers have been vital in keeping services going and patients safe. We moved our Cancer services off site completely to a self contained building so only those with cancer were going there. Managers did that! Private hospitals lent us ventilators; managers organised that. The idea managers are just paper pushers really lacks understanding of how a hospital works and what nurses do. Don’t get me wrong, nurses are amazing but so are the managers. I’ve seen exceptional work over the last 12 months so it’s depressing when I’m called a paper pusher having been on call 24/7 for the first 6 months of the pandemic before the rota came in.

@moregarlic

I’m not an “anti vaxxer”. I won’t be having this one yet, as I’d like to see some long term safety date first.

As to your question, I was an advocate of the original idea of offering the vaccine to the elderly and vulnerable (ie. those that are likely to become very ill or die from covid) and then opening up.

Matt Hancock even said he would “cry freedom” once that population had been vaccinated.

That we’re now still living with restrictions and under a government who want to vaccinate healthy children (and remember, no healthy child has died in the UK from covid) is mind boggling to me.

We already vaccinate healthy children. Babies have vaccinations, children have them before they start school and most have the flu vaccination (although not given as a needle) every year. Why is this any different? It's a virus that could kill them or have long term effects. Yes, it's unlikely but have you ever read the likelihood of them getting all the other viruses children are now routinely vaccinated against? Has your child, if you have any, had these and the flu jab? If so then your argument doesn't stack up. I don't see the difference personally.

@Sunnyfreezesushi

Not me personally, but I know a group people who are vegan, very clean living, very fit, anti lockdown and anti vaccine. They seem to believe modern medicine full stop is not fit for purpose anymore because of our ageing population. They believe the whole of society is sick and lives wrong and doesn’t take responsibility for their health. They also profess they won’t want to be kept alive unnecessarily in old age by the NHS. So their solution is that everyone needs to change their lifestyle and thinking completely. I am pretty sure they would leave the country if forced to have a vaccine and go live abroad.

This makes me so angry. The reason people like that are in a position to rubbish modern medicine is because of the wonders of modern medicine! Before Covid, people living in Western countries today had not had to live through outbreaks of deadly diseases such as polio, smallpox etc because of vaccinations. Infant mortality is a low as it is because of modern maternity care. Many cancers are survivable now because of treatments that have been developed. I don't agree that we should be kept alive by any means possible towards end of life. But equally modern medicine supports palliative care too. We are just too bloody privileged

They are covid minimisers. They play down the impact of covid at every opportunity (largely as it doesn't impact then or they don't understand what it could do) and amplify every issue from vaccines
They justify their thoughts through seeking out any random article to justify their position
They blame the government and MSM and think everyone else is a sheeple

@m0therofdragons

NHS needs a massive cash injection and far fewer managers aka paper pushers. Better paid and valued nurses. Etc.

This makes me so cross. I’m an nhs manager and we’ve been doing all the planning and communicating to ensure nurses and doctors can do their jobs safely! We are one team and if all the managers left the hospitals wouldn’t be safe. I spend my work supporting clinician and developing models of working that work for patients and clinicians. All the virtual appointment systems that meant those unable to have face to face meetings and kept people safe and away from hospitals; managers did that! Throughout the pandemic the managers have been vital in keeping services going and patients safe. We moved our Cancer services off site completely to a self contained building so only those with cancer were going there. Managers did that! Private hospitals lent us ventilators; managers organised that. The idea managers are just paper pushers really lacks understanding of how a hospital works and what nurses do. Don’t get me wrong, nurses are amazing but so are the managers. I’ve seen exceptional work over the last 12 months so it’s depressing when I’m called a paper pusher having been on call 24/7 for the first 6 months of the pandemic before the rota came in.

Agreed Also, whilst I do agree the NHS is underfunded, thinking we can tackle covid just by throwing money at the NHS, really doesn't reflect the issue

I think it’s unfair to cast anti lockdown people as eugenists or whatever. You get extremes of course you in every movement and so there maybe some but most I think are mainly worried about government overreach into our lives ( banning hugging etc) and how Covid deaths / cases seem more important to the government than cancer deaths, suicide, people losing livelihoods, children’s education etc. The lack of balance. And not all anti lockdown people are anti vaccine either and some anti vaccine might be pro lockdown. Like the zero Covid people ( the other end of the spectrum)there are a variety of opinions , some extreme others more pragmatic.
The anti lockdown person I know is not an extremist at all imo. They just want more balance weighing up all risks of lockdown not just Covid.

Thanks for all your hard work, m0therofdragons I can just imagine how incredibly tough it's been and how many difficult decisions and long hours there have been. You are quite right to be cross at the public perception of "pen pushers."

I'm a teacher and leaders in schools have worked even harder and longer hours than the rest of us and we've worked much longer hours than normal for 15 months.

I propose that we treat this virus, which we now know so much more about, like the relatively non dangerous seasonal respiratory virus that it has now become. It has a 99% survival rate for most people under 60 even before the vaccines and discovered treatments and those over 60 and those younger who may be vulnerable to more serious illness have had the opportunity to receive the vaccine.

I propose that we stop treating healthy people like they are diseased.

I propose that we don’t need to hear the case count every single day of our lives and in fact we really don’t need to hear much more about any of it anymore because it’s a non-story. Cases really don’t matter when they don’t correlate with increased hospitalisations or deaths. When do we ever worry about the case rate of the common cold or chicken pox? Yes there can be longer term effects but the same is true after suffering the flu or pneumonia or a chest infection, or even chicken pox! (And dare i say it, a vaccine)

I propose that we get our lives completely back to normal with no travel restrictions and no limitations on private or public gatherings.

I propose we tell the government that the NHS needs better funding in order to cope with excess flu/covid seasons and also the huge backlog this has created for treatments of every other kind.

I propose that scientific questioning and opposition is returned to normal so that alternative views and discussion and discoveries that don’t necessarily follow the current plan can be considered.

I propose that people who have had and recovered from covid are counted for their natural immunity.

Lastly, I propose that the fear propaganda, coercion, outright lies and discriminatory language directed at members of the public are dropped immediately and those who created them never work in public office again.

You can be anti lockdown but pro vaccine we are not the same . I’m anti lockdown now because of the vaccine I say get the bloody vaccine so we don’t lockdown. I appreciate many can’t or won’t and I don’t make any judgment on peoples circumstances in the same way I don’t make any judgement of people or can’t or won’t wear a mask because like everything it’s doesn’t have to be 100% to work just the majority.

@Waveafterwaveslowlydrifting

OK I thought that's what you meant!

Absolutely the government are profiting from other contracts. Tutoring for catch up in schools. My class would benefit far more from more individual and small group time with me, their class teacher, through smaller class size than an hour a week with a possibly unqualified tutor who doesn't know them or care about their outcomes.

Test and trace is a useless pile of wank. NHS needs a massive cash injection and far fewer managers aka paper pushers. Better paid and valued nurses. Etc.

Comments like this about NHS managers are not helpful at all. Test and Trace isn't run by the NHS, so it's also conflating two different issues. We need excellent managers in the NHS so that us as clinicians can get on with our jobs. Many of the managers in my trust have a clinical background. But equally, we also have those from a business background that bring different bug essential knowledge and skills. Yes of course more clinicians are needed, but you cannot run an organisation as massive as the NHS without excellent management.

@m0therofdragons

I disagree on a couple of points but know I’m in the majority.

Ppe was urgently needed and usual sources unable to provide enough. Who do you buy from Dave down the road or a friend you’ve known and trusted for years? Yes, usually you’d go out to tender but there was no time.

I work in a hospital and there were times we were going to run out of gowns within 24 hours and we were nervous but each time we escalated to the central phone number they delivered. We never knew what we were getting or when but actually they came through. I had doctors shouting at me there was no ppe and we were out of masks so I marched them to the additional storage to show them to stop believing the media. We even had enough to send to some local care homes.

Things kept changing in the early days but I kind of expect that. We have a flu pandemic plan but that wasn’t quite right for covid and had to evolve. I don’t think the government has been incompetent. I think they had exceptionally hard decisions to make and tried to balance the economy with health (both covid and non covid). Have all the decisions been right? No, but expecting perfect government during this time is unrealistic. They have been open and we have so much data available.

The only well balanced and educated response on this post so far. The scaremongering and government bashing is rife. Not a single person here could have done a better job under the circumstances, but sure everyone's an armchair politician are they not?

You've slated everything the government have done, because they've been a bunch of self serving incompetent twats (wholeheartedly agree). Then you trust them to inject you with lord knows what. I've let them too, so I hope they haven't messed this one up, but I completely understand why people are running mile.

@amylou8

You've slated everything the government have done, because they've been a bunch of self serving incompetent twats (wholeheartedly agree). Then you trust them to inject you with lord knows what. I've let them too, so I hope they haven't messed this one up, but I completely understand why people are running mile.

Who developed the vaccines? Was it the government? Or was it a group of highly skilled and knowledgeable scientists who've spent their life developing vaccines to help us address situations such as these? It wasn't the government, was it...

I apologise for my NHS manager comment. That was nasty.

People are missing the point. Of course you can be pro-vaccine and/or anti-lockdown but it's the combination that is of note. How can you be anti-lockdown if you don't believe in having the vaccination? Do you just want everyone to get it in an uncontrolled way?

The people I know who are anti-vaccine don't want it for themselves but I suspect want everyone else to get it so they are not at risk. Selfish basically.

@Waveafterwaveslowlydrifting

I apologise for my NHS manager comment. That was nasty.

Thanks. It's really nice to hear that as you've clearly understood what I and @m0therofdragons have said

@Lostinacloud

I propose that we treat this virus, which we now know so much more about, like the relatively non dangerous seasonal respiratory virus that it has now become. It has a 99% survival rate for most people under 60 even before the vaccines and discovered treatments and those over 60 and those younger who may be vulnerable to more serious illness have had the opportunity to receive the vaccine.

I propose that we stop treating healthy people like they are diseased.

I propose that we don’t need to hear the case count every single day of our lives and in fact we really don’t need to hear much more about any of it anymore because it’s a non-story. Cases really don’t matter when they don’t correlate with increased hospitalisations or deaths. When do we ever worry about the case rate of the common cold or chicken pox? Yes there can be longer term effects but the same is true after suffering the flu or pneumonia or a chest infection, or even chicken pox! (And dare i say it, a vaccine)

I propose that we get our lives completely back to normal with no travel restrictions and no limitations on private or public gatherings.

I propose we tell the government that the NHS needs better funding in order to cope with excess flu/covid seasons and also the huge backlog this has created for treatments of every other kind.

I propose that scientific questioning and opposition is returned to normal so that alternative views and discussion and discoveries that don’t necessarily follow the current plan can be considered.

I propose that people who have had and recovered from covid are counted for their natural immunity.

Lastly, I propose that the fear propaganda, coercion, outright lies and discriminatory language directed at members of the public are dropped immediately and those who created them never work in public office again.

There you go Covid minimising and blaming the govt for every thing. Obviously very awake

Thank you for noticing @sleepwouldbenice. I am very much awake to what has been going on. Wish more people were.

Someone earlier put the furlough scheme alongside lockdown. There was a strong economic driver behind furlough. Even if the UK had avoided national lockdowns (e.g. by following the New Zealand model and closing the borders) it is very likely that a furlough scheme would have been needed. Very large parts of the UK economy shut-down because the rest of the world shutdown. Factories were already moving to short-hours in response to supply chains slowing.

On the vaccine, I'm very much in favour of it. I'm very much in two minds about making it compulsory. I think there re some jobs where it would be very difficult to justify the risk of employing someone not prepared to have it, but ultimately it's freedom of choice.

What does concern me about the Antivax Movement is that it's associated with a lot of other very fringe ideas (5G, grand solar minimum, lizard people, Q, etc.) and it's a very significant risk to the wellbeing of people in a vulnerable frame of mind at a time of global uncertainty.

And I’m happy to own the fact that I am covid minimising because it is time that it can be minimised. It is no longer a threat to the elderly and vulnerable people and so it has become like every other virus that we usually live alongside with. Yes it sadly affects some people that we did not expect it to affect but then so do other viruses in existence. At some point it has to end, pandemics dont last forever.

The people who baffle me most are the ones who attribute measures taken by every functioning government worldwide to specific failings of the UK Conservative party.

God knows the NHS needs better funding to bring it up to the standards of other developed nations. But I’m baffled by the people (normally Socialist Worker types) who occasionally suggest that if it was properly funded then we wouldn’t have had to lock down. I realise that no opportunity to bash the Tories should go untaken, but do they never see any news from anywhere else in the world? Likewise “Boris’s mates have shares in Zoom”.

@Winkywonkydonkey

I'm anti lockdown but pro Vax. I wish they'd pushed money into NHS rather than test and trace, extended furlough etc. I feel everything this government do they do for an ideological agenda rather than what's necessary. It's not just ppe contracts their mates will be making money off, there will be people making millions off how trade has changed as a result of Brexit and covid, how work and education has changed - I wouldn't be surprised if Boris had a mate with zoom shares and there's no doubt theyll use the precarity of the NHS to 'overhaul' it and not in a good way.

This is what I think

Vaccines, testing, tracing coupled with proper isolation pay for 2 weeks for those who have to isolate surely has to be a better option than locking up 10s of millions of healthy fully vaccinated people.

It worries me now though how many people now seem to think a lockdown should be the default measure.and not a last resort and that the government will continue to pander to these people.

I know anti vaxxers who keep saying there is no need for restrictions and lockdowns because EVERYONE is vaccinated....yet they aren't