If you personally are against the vaccine AND against lockdowns what do you propose instead?

[Waveafterwaveslowlydrifting]

I've seen the same people who initially panicked, like many of us, about the situation in Italy in Feb 2020, and declared that something must be done, who are against lockdowns and also anti vax. So they didn't want people dying in the streets, but also didn't want the solutions that the government proposed. What did they want? What do they want now?

My own stance on the pandemic response is:
The government are a bunch of incompetent, self serving tossers who gave ppe contracts to their mates etc. They didn't make timely decisions and are spineless and people pleasing. The nightingales were an expensive publicity stunt. The way they have decimated education is shocking. I'm not saying other parties would have done much better.

I'm having my second AZ today and am certainly not antivax.

I know massive mistakes have been made. I think vaccination is the way out of this mess. I think the original lockdown was needed but should have been shorter. The NHS is woefully underfunded and shouldn't need 'protecting' the way the tory slogans say. Surely shutting down the economy for so long is worse personally for the tories than the financial gain they have made from ppe contracts etc?

If you don't believe vaccination is a solution for covid, and neither is lockdown, what would you want to happen instead?

The people I know who are anti-vaccine don't want it for themselves but I suspect want everyone else to get it so they are not at risk. Selfish basically

I find this an odd suspicion. I don't particularly want to have a vaccine, the main reason for this is because I think I am NOT at risk. I am happy for those that actually are at risk (and those that are not at risk but believe that they are) to have the vaccine because it gives them protection/peace of mind. I don't need either protection or peace of mind...... so I don't feel that I need to have a vaccine.

Has anyone actually outright said that they don't want to be vaccinated but are happy for everyone else to be vaccinated because it would give them protection without having a vaccine themselves? Because I see it supposed on here a lot but I don't think there's any truth in it.

I would hazard a guess they mean everyone who actually needs the vaccine are vaccinated jumpbounce. People have lost sight of the fact that this virus does not hospitalise or kill the vast majority of under 60’s with no other recognised existing condition risk factors.

@Shelovesamystery exactly!

Testing
Testing
Enforcing selfisolation properly
Closing borders rapidly

Testing
Testing
Enforcing selfisolation properly
Closing borders rapidly

Agreed.

@Lostinacloud

I would hazard a guess they mean everyone who actually needs the vaccine are vaccinated jumpbounce. People have lost sight of the fact that this virus does not hospitalise or kill the vast majority of under 60’s with no other recognised existing condition risk factors.

There is a whole population of children many of whom are vulnerable to covid who have not and cannot yet be vaccinated. But these people are happy to allow it to spread through schools because children aren't at risk which in actual fact translates to 'MY child is not at risk so I don't care' yet harp on about how the vulnerable and elderly are protected as though they actually give a damn.

@Lostinacloud I think it stems from the idea that everyone is scared of covid. I think some people are unable to comprehend that there are LOTS of people who are not in any way scared of catching it, so they struggle to see it all from that point of view.

@Lostinacloud

And I’m happy to own the fact that I am covid minimising because it is time that it can be minimised. It is no longer a threat to the elderly and vulnerable people and so it has become like every other virus that we usually live alongside with. Yes it sadly affects some people that we did not expect it to affect but then so do other viruses in existence. At some point it has to end, pandemics dont last forever.

I will agree with you when we reach that point But we haven't yet And I suspect you've been minimising for s long time

Their response to that as well usually is about how sorry they are about the vulnerable children but we can't possibly make any changes to our lives in order protect them which is completely opposite to how they have protected the elderly who didn't have their whole lives in front of them.

But vaccines are already available to young Vulnerable people are are about to be available to those over 12. Saying that, last August The Times newspaper published a study from England and Wales looking at child mortality and of the 9 children that had died with covid, 6 were babies born extremely unwell and in life threatening condition and 3 were 15-18 year olds who were described as also “profoundly ill”. I’m not for one second suggesting that these children didn’t matter or that those deaths were acceptable, of course not! However, it does demonstrate the almost zero risk of covid to children, even those with other health issues.

I'm anti lockdown but not anti vax. I'm not having the vaccine for my own reasons but I don't think people should be hounded to have it. I think its disingenuous to say its comparable to the oral contraceptive pill because we are being pushed relentlessly to have the OCP. People should make up their own minds. I think lockdowns should end. I firmly believe when the harms from lockdown are quantified most people will be horrified and say how could we let this happen?

I did believe in lockdowns for a time but I think they are now doing more harm than good. I have recently seen elderly relatives whom I haven't seen for more than a year and the difference in them is incredible

That's without getting into both adults and children living with abuse/neglect or those who simply struggle having their freedoms curtailed. I think there will be a lot of suicide rulings which will be due to lockdown where people have had their suffering minimised and couldn't take it any more.

@Lostinacloud

I would hazard a guess they mean everyone who actually needs the vaccine are vaccinated jumpbounce. People have lost sight of the fact that this virus does not hospitalise or kill the vast majority of under 60’s with no other recognised existing condition risk factors.

The variants we've seen so far.

And those fortunate enough to be fully vaccinated (2nd dose + 4w) need to not lose sight of the fact that a large proportion of the population are still not fully vaccinated - including most teaching staff. The Delta variant is affecting younger age groups more severely than last year's variant and the current vaccines are much less effective and take longer to become effective against it. In the UK it's largely bottled up in a few hotspot areas but should it break out we're going to see hospitalizations rise again.

We can avoid lockdowns if people act responsibly. But half the population are less responsible than the average. People can't realistically call for the right to foreign holidays and the end to lockdowns in the same breath. But that's what's being heard.

@Lostinacloud Your post at 08.54 says it perfectly.

Should say are NOT being pushed relentlessly to have the OCP

I am really pro vaccine and have had both doses myself. I have no time for anti vaxxers and I was all in favour of any potential vaccine for Covid being mandatory. But now I see the nastiness on here towards people for not having it I have actually changed my mind. It strikes me the “stay the fuck at home”, calling pensioners “selfish cunts” for walking to buy a paper every day, curtain twitching, shopping basket police, mask Stasi have just found a new group to bully now.

We can avoid lockdowns if people act responsibly. But half the population are less responsible than the average. People can't realistically call for the right to foreign holidays and the end to lockdowns in the same breath. But that's what's being heard.

How can you expect people to act reapinsibly given that the government are not acting responsibly by flying people from all over the world without the restrictions the rest of us are subject to?

If things were as bad as they say, why would the government (and lots of other world leaders) even entertain that?

We are now being played, pure and simple

I think if covid has highlighted anything it is that the majority of the British public have essentially no critical thinking skills whatsoever.

The government aren't clever enough to "play" us. They are incompetent, simple as that.

Blaming people for not being responsible is a big old red herring. The very vast majority of people stick to most of the guidelines that are issued. Mavis nattering over the hedge without a mask on is not what has caused 100k+ deaths.

@BonnieDundee

We can avoid lockdowns if people act responsibly. But half the population are less responsible than the average. People can't realistically call for the right to foreign holidays and the end to lockdowns in the same breath. But that's what's being heard.

How can you expect people to act reapinsibly given that the government are not acting responsibly by flying people from all over the world without the restrictions the rest of us are subject to?

If things were as bad as they say, why would the government (and lots of other world leaders) even entertain that?

We are now being played, pure and simple

Totally agree

They are taking the fucking piss.

@m0therofdragons Well said, I'm sick of this idea that the the NHS would somehow be perfect if management/admin/finance staff were all sacked. These people are key to the NHS running correctly to allow clinicians to actually treat patients.

@Rosehip10 thank you. I feel like I totally neglected my children in first lockdown while Dh (also a key worker but working from home) homeschooled the three of them. He’s incredible and worked so hard. I helped lesson planning a midnight the night before each day (sadly our primary lessons were lacking). The amount I worked to then read about how nurses and doctors are all that matters is really hurtful. Luckily the actual nurses and doctors i work with don’t share this opinion. We are one team and need each other!

@Lostinacloud

But vaccines are already available to young Vulnerable people are are about to be available to those over 12. Saying that, last August The Times newspaper published a study from England and Wales looking at child mortality and of the 9 children that had died with covid, 6 were babies born extremely unwell and in life threatening condition and 3 were 15-18 year olds who were described as also “profoundly ill”. I’m not for one second suggesting that these children didn’t matter or that those deaths were acceptable, of course not! However, it does demonstrate the almost zero risk of covid to children, even those with other health issues.

I don't know of any young vulnerable child who has been vaccinated. It has gone to panels to make the decision in many cases but no one has agreed to proceed that I know of, although I'm sure perhaps some have been successful. The reason these children haven't ended ended in hospital or dead yet was as a result of shielding but the general population don't acknowledge this. My own entire household adults and siblings shielded from early March 2020 until after Easter 2021. We didn't see any family or friends, we used only no contact deliveries. We attended hospital as normal however we were in isolation rooms within the hospital on admission and weren't able to leave those rooms. Amongst the families I know with ECV children this has not been at all unusual and most of them have been doing the same hence these children not being affected YET however it is unreasonable to expect groups of young children and teenagers to do this for significant periods of time. Cases in my area are now extremely low for the first time in the pandemic that the risk is now lower and my children have been able to return to school however this is under the provision that if/when cases begin rising again they will have to be pulled out again. I know children in some areas who have now been signed off school until September due to the cases in their area which didn't remain low at all. So until vaccination is available then the only way to protect these groups is to keep transmission low and allowing the virus to spread freely among the healthy does not achieve that aim.

Equally everyone only looks at the deaths of children as if it is OK because they didn't die. That is not entirely true. My own DC survived a virus that has left them vulnerable for life, the risk from covid isn't necessarily death although in some cases it is. It is further damage to their organs which would have a further significant impact on their quality of life. It is not all about death.

@jumpbounce we may have to agree to disagree on the onward plan out of this pandemic but I do wish you and your family only the very best of health and outcome and cannot begin to imagine how stressful this time has been for you and others like you. I sincerely hope you are able to achieve the assistance you need in order to keep your DC safe and I can’t see how even the most hardened of anti-lockdown advocates could argue any different.