Question for people who are so anti-vaccine

[User135644]

Whether people choose to take the vaccine or not is up to them, that's not what i'm interested in.

But you get people who are so against the Covid vaccines, yet are also vehemently anti-lockdown and any restrictions (i.e. the rabble in London the other day, spreading anti-vax rhetoric all over the city while doing their best William Wallace impressions 'freedom').

Do these people not realise that without vaccines we'd still massively be up shit creek without a paddle (as many countries still are)? We'd likely still be in lockdown with the Indian variant particularly causing many deaths among the elderly and vulnerable. Therefore, whether you choose to take the vaccine or not, are you not at least glad at the effect they've had on suppressing the virus?

Our government have handled Covid so badly that the vaccines have been a literal life saver for thousands of people. We'd be fucked right now without them. Be grateful.

I’m genuinely sorry to hear that and I hope you are in a much better place
Yes ..what was done to people living alone young and old alike was inhumane and I would never forgive the snitches and curtain twitchers
Never!

Thank you :)
Things are dipping again but I am reaching out this time.

Local FB boards were full of snitches and curtain twitchers. Made me angry but also sad that they must be lacking in something in their life to feel the need to be utter knobs to their own community.

I'm not anti vaccine but I do think AstraZeneca is unsafe and less effective and should be stopped now. I do also think that there is NO justification for vaccinating healthy children and any country that does this could have some serious blood on their hands since these vaccines are still in the early stages. We don't have any real, lived experience of babies born post-vaccination or puberty or autoimmune conditions etc.

And I'm more than happy for them to lock down and mask up if that's the only alternative to AZ or vaccinating kids (but it isn't).

But if you can't see how the goalposts have changed on lockdown, do look at a timeline.

What do you think is happening, Ostara?

'Local FB boards were full of snitches and curtain twitchers. Made me angry but also sad that they must be lacking in something in their life to feel the need to be utter knobs to their own community.'

Perhaps they have mental health problems too and are extreme anxious meaning that while they were adhering to restrictions when others weren't it made their mh worse? Calling people 'knobs' isn't very #bekind is it.

We all need a bit of empathy and understanding.

@LovelyLadyLily we don't know for sure it is less effective as the rollout was later. Yes perhaps it is less safe overall due to the clotting risk but without it we would be nowhere near as far on with the vaccination programme and Covid could be far more prevalent and hospital admissions higher etc. I am glad to have had both doses now of AZ but agree I am wary a out vaccinating my teens.

Rabble in London? Or a group of around 1 million people worried about the way we are seemingly accepting endless and pointless restrictions.

I don't think I'm unusual for being anti lockdown but has the vaccine as soon as I was allowed and volunteered for a trial of them (although they didn't need me). I had a couple of days of nasty side effects but was expecting that and will have my second when invited.

Lockdown is a completely separate issue. It's a cruel, disproportionate policy the impact of which will be felt for decades. It also seems to have turned people into the worst versions of themselves. Judging others, uncaring about the impact and happily letting others take risks while they lock themselves inside. It has worsened inequality and the resulting poverty will cost more life years than Covid.

@JaniieJones

'We can sit and laugh at these people, but their complete lack of ability for rational thinking is far more common than we'd like to acknowledge.'

Yes it has been quite incredible. The opinions even just on mn. Mask refusers, vaccine refusers, flouters, people going on about nazis and civil liberties yet wanging on that 'the government should be doing MORE!!!'

Sorry, but whilst I am pro-vaccination and necessary measures to control a pandemic; "going on about nazis and civil liberties" demonstrates that I am very capable of rational thinking, especially since the government (who I have never said should be doing "MORE", but certainly have argued they should be doing DIFFERENTLY) is now attempting to enshrine the "temporary" and "necessary" restrictions on civil liberties in permanent laws.

Being judgemental about everyone else who disagrees with you is not rational thinking. You perhaps needed to have that pointed out, because you seem to think it is. You may be disturbed by the way that people come to the conclusions they do, and those conclusions may be based on different sets of facts, or even on demonstrably incorrect information they have been given. But understanding why people are thinking in the way that they do and what goes in to convincing them of things is the key to unlocking arguments - not judgemental insults about not being rational, being stupid etc. You won't ever persuade everyone. And a good thing too. Difference is what keeps democracy alive, even if you don't agree with someone.

It is a strange connection - anti lockdown and anti vaccine as the latter will help us move on from the former, but I suppose it comes from same place. Let Covid just run. Or maybe another solution not sure

A virus doesn't care about a protest in a pandemic..... in fact it probably loves it.

@sunshinepunch

A virus doesn't care about a protest in a pandemic..... in fact it probably loves it.

Every time there's a protest people say there will be a spike in 2 weeks. Never is.

Why are Texas doing fine with no restrictions at all?

The problem with people refusing the vaccine (and more importantly deterring others from having theirs) is that it gives the virus more opportunities to mutate, thus rendering the vaccines less or even ineffective thus delaying the end of lockdown and the return to normality. There was a programme on Channel 4 called The Anti-Vax Conspiracy last night, which was eye-opening and scary.

Nope OP because they are relying on the likes of the vaccinated to keep them immune, herd immunity and all that.

If this was a "proper" pandemic, young, old etc dying in their thousands daily, their kids etc in danger, they'd be first in line for a vaccine.

I think it’s the equivalent of putting your head in the sand and hoping for the best, no vaccines but no lockdown either, just letting the virus rip because they are young and healthy enough to be complacent about it, or assume they are. The goalposts have changed in that this time last year people where constantly asking “will there be a vaccine, where is it?” Now we have it, they can rely on others to create herd immunity. It was interesting last night when they said only 10% they were anti vaccine but on here it seems like a much higher proportions of posters are, it’s almost like there is an agenda being pushed

@JaniieJones

'Local FB boards were full of snitches and curtain twitchers. Made me angry but also sad that they must be lacking in something in their life to feel the need to be utter knobs to their own community.'

Perhaps they have mental health problems too and are extreme anxious meaning that while they were adhering to restrictions when others weren't it made their mh worse? Calling people 'knobs' isn't very #bekind is it.

We all need a bit of empathy and understanding.

No, they were knobs. They were sneering at people with mental health problems, including myself.

Enough folk have got vaxxed now with the rest probably going to get it albeit in a mild form that we are approaching herd immunity. Probably time to call off the war. The vaxxed won it by a mile...

There was a programme on Channel 4 called The Anti-Vax Conspiracy last night, which was eye-opening and scary It was v. interesting, wasn't it? I hadn't realised that disgraced (and struck-off doctor) Andrew Wakefield has basically become a leader of the anti-vax movement in the USA - a movement which had been going for some time before Covid came along, but which gave it many more opportunities. A main motive behind the movement seemed to be money - generated through social media primarily (ads, sale of "healthy" alternatives etc etc). I absolutely don't believe in compulsory vaccinations, but I'd really urge anyone who is researching on the subject to a. watch the programme and b. Try and dig below the facebook post or the link to the article that someone forwards to you. The programme showed how many amoral people there are out there, effectively making money out of people's insecurity and worries.

@LovelyLadyLily

I'm not anti vaccine but I do think AstraZeneca is unsafe and less effective and should be stopped now. I do also think that there is NO justification for vaccinating healthy children and any country that does this could have some serious blood on their hands since these vaccines are still in the early stages. We don't have any real, lived experience of babies born post-vaccination or puberty or autoimmune conditions etc.

And I'm more than happy for them to lock down and mask up if that's the only alternative to AZ or vaccinating kids (but it isn't).

@LovelyLadyLily - on the same logic, we don’t know the long term effects of actually getting covid on puberty, pregnancy, autoimmune conditions, etc.

Why are Texas doing fine with no restrictions at all?

@GiveMeNovocain

Not as fine as certain republicans would have you think:

"Texas removed their mask mandate two months ago, and sleepy Joe called it Neanderthal thinking," she (Boebert) said. "No sir. Republicans are just following the science. And since removing the mask mandate two months ago, Texas has not reported a single COVID death. Not one."

A look at the state’s COVID-19 dashboard shows that, although daily fatality numbers are decreasing, more than 3,000 Texans have died of the coronavirus since the mask mandate was lifted. That’s about 6% of the 50,000 deaths Texas has recorded since the beginning of the pandemic.
This total also does not include fatalities from May 23 to date, which have not yet been recorded by the state. And totals from May 10 onward are still trickling in because, according to a Texas Department of State Health Services spokesperson, it takes around 10 days, on average, for funeral homes and medical officials to submit death certificates.

That does seem to suggest that lifting all restrictions that quickly isn’t the best idea.

"Texas removed their mask mandate two months ago, and sleepy Joe called it Neanderthal thinking," she (Boebert) said. "No sir. Republicans are just following the science. And since removing the mask mandate two months ago, Texas has not reported a single COVID death. Not one."

And I certainly wouldn't trust anything Boebert says! I've never known Republicans to "follow the science"

A vaccine is not going to make the government remove lockdown
Are you thick? One person getting a vaccine won’t no. But enough people getting a vaccine to mean that the numbers stay low and the disease is mild WILL mean removing lockdown. The longer you take to get it, the longer it will be before lockdowns are gone. The imbecile level is high on these threads

TheClaws Very true! very little grip on any kind of science, doesn’t really get the difference between 0 and 3000, probably couldn’t reliably point to Texas on a map... I mean we all have our struggles but she does particularly take the biscuit

People I know who are antivax and anti lockdowns etc simply say that COVID isn't anywhere near as deadly as the media would have you believe.

They also believe that lockdowns are harmful in themselves and so are vaccines.

FWIW I agree - I think it has been massively overhyped and spiral of fear created in the media. And lockdown does have downsides, some of them enormous. Pretending it is totally harmless doesn't help anybody.

However I do think of my friends who have these views the balance is a bit wrong. They are also inclined to believe that the reporting is faulty and reactions to vaccines are covered up or hidden. I don't think this is the case - there is no such thing as a vaccine without risk but I also don't feel like the risks are being denied. Whereas they do.

Some of them also seem to think that the whole thing is totally made up / a conspiracy or an excuse latched onto in order to control the masses. I don't think we need to be as scared of COVID as the media suggests. I do think we should be much more aware of the downsides of lockdowns. I am not sure the vaccine needs to be rolled out as fast and furiously as it has been, and I think the fact it has been is fuelled by this narrative that COVID is one of the worst things to happen ever, when realistically it is just another transmissible virus - there are plenty of those.

But broadly, if you look at governments all over the world, they are all doing similar things and I don't think they are all wrong or it's all a conspiracy. That doesn't make sense. Even in Sweden there were recommendations to socially distance and reduce contact, it just wasn't put into law. I also think it's hard for laypeople to understand the risks from disease. Measles for example is well worth vaccinating against and I think COVID is not dissimilar in the risk profile. But there was a time that most people got measles in childhood, and the vast majority of people were OK. The health services were not overwhelmed. There were no lockdowns. Even if you caught measles tomorrow, the chances are you'd recover and be absolutely fine. However there is a chance you'd suffer severe effects or long-lasting damage. (My antivax friends also think that Measles is totally harmless, BTW.)

Sometimes it comes from comparing different types of risk as well, which is really complicated to do because each course of action has so many different risk factors, some small, some serious, and some likely, some unlikely. They have come to a different conclusion, possibly based on different information sources.

In general risk is hard to understand. We are conditioned to see percentages as a kind of scale from 1-100, so a 1-5% risk sounds low, even though that means it will happen to between 1 in 20 to 1 in 100 people, which is a huge amount of of people, particularly when we're looking at large numbers like population. It is more helpful to look at risk in terms of ratios I find, when they are presented as percentages, this can be misleading, yet this is how they are usually presented in the media.

@mrbob

The disease is mild for the majority anyway. The vaccine means that people in the most at risk groups are more likely to have mild disease too.

Even without finishing vaccination for the top 9 groups we have very low hospitalisations and deaths. We’re already out of lockdown. We just haven’t finished lifting all restrictions yet.

I have no problem with someone not wanting the vaccine.

It's people trying to make you feel bad/stupid for getting the vaccine I detest.