How many of you have been eating inside at restaurants now?

[Lovelydaybut]

We ended up needing to eat today in a city we were visiting (long story).
Tried lots of outdoor places but no tables free so we went into a huge fairly empty restaurant.
Bit by bit, it filled up and they ended up seating people quite closely together.

I have had both vaccines - second one was around 10 days ago.

Nobody except the waiters had masks on.

"You will be mingling with the unvaccinated whenever you go anywhere. There will be people who don't get the vaccine and you'll have no idea who they are."

Not in an enclosed space. For over an hour. Without masks. @Waxonwaxoff0

I definitely don't suffer from health anxiety, but have similar concerns to the OP, and have had them before. Pps can't dismiss legitimate concerns with anxiety.

@wintertravel1980

Has everyone forgotten that Eat Out To Help Out was one of the main drivers of the second wave?

Only it was not. Obvious and intuitive hypotheses often turn out to be wrong.

Firstly, the weekly ONS survey suggests that Covid prevalence in the UK stayed flat throughout summer and only started rising during the week ending September 2 (with the percentage of people in the community having Covid going up from 0.05% to 0.07%). EOHO ran from the beginning of August so if it had had significant impact on the virus spread it would have shown up in the ONS numbers earlier.

Secondly, genomic testing indicated that the majority of September cases were "seeded" by returning travellers from Spain.

www.ft.com/content/2782655a-0441-4d38-bb03-5c4e67ead110

A coronavirus variant that originated in Spanish farm workers has spread rapidly through much of Europe since the summer, and now accounts for the majority of new Covid-19 cases in several countries — and more than 80 per cent in the UK.

"The estimates suggest that the scheme is responsible for around 8-17% of all infections during the summer months and likely, many more non detected asymptomatic infections, that may have substantially contributed to accelerating the second wave of the pandemic."

warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/manage/publications/wp.517.2020.pdf

I think you aren't ready OP to sit inside a restaurant if you are anxious about being too close to others.

If you aren't happy don't go or ask to be moved and leave if that doesn't happen.

But for me I really don't care and will happily dine inside and don't feel the need to measure how far people are sitting away from me. And no I don't put a mask on as soon as I have eaten or taken a sip of a drink. When I enter, leave or go to the toilet I do which is what is required but when sitting down then no.

@NannyAndJohn

"You will be mingling with the unvaccinated whenever you go anywhere. There will be people who don't get the vaccine and you'll have no idea who they are."

Not in an enclosed space. For over an hour. Without masks. @Waxonwaxoff0

You will. Unless you never go in a restaurant, cinema, train, theatre, office, or have kids at school, ever again in your life. Masks won't be here forever.

The estimates suggest that the scheme is responsible for around 8-17% of all infections during the summer months and likely, many more non detected asymptomatic infections, that may have substantially contributed to accelerating the second wave of the pandemic.

Of course, I am aware of the Warwick study:). It was published before the results of the genomic testing were made widely available.

I’m not suggesting we make the lockdown any more severe or make it longer.

I was just asking who is out and about and telling the story of the restaurant that I went to and giving a little bit of the reason why I was asking about it all.

I think you are leaping to a conclusion about my intent.

I’m sorry you feel so stressed about it all.
It’s been crap, hasn’t it

*The most sensible plan is to have social distancing (done correctly), increased ventilation of indoor spaces, an effective track and trace and vaccines. Oh and local management of outbreaks of different strains.

What’s the problem with that?*

The problem is that social distancing (done 'correctly' or otherwise) means that hospitality, transport, tourism, the arts, leisure, culture, entertainment and many other industries are financially unviable. Since these industries employ millions and contribute billions in tax revenue, I'd say that's a pretty big problem.

If vaccines are working 'fantastically' as you say, why should we continue to destroy people's livelihoods in this way? For fear of a theoretical vaccine escaping variant which may never happen?

Sorry, I have to correct myself - the Warwick document was not a "study". It was a "paper" that had never made it to a peer review.

@IcedPurple

*The most sensible plan is to have social distancing (done correctly), increased ventilation of indoor spaces, an effective track and trace and vaccines. Oh and local management of outbreaks of different strains.

What’s the problem with that?*

The problem is that social distancing (done 'correctly' or otherwise) means that hospitality, transport, tourism, the arts, leisure, culture, entertainment and many other industries are financially unviable. Since these industries employ millions and contribute billions in tax revenue, I'd say that's a pretty big problem.

If vaccines are working 'fantastically' as you say, why should we continue to destroy people's livelihoods in this way? For fear of a theoretical vaccine escaping variant which may never happen?

And yet here we are in a pandemic that nobody planned for.

If we allow the virus to exist in increasing numbers, we predispose to the variant that will evade the vaccines - it’s a matter of numbers of people with the virus.
So, we need to do this with caution and wisely.
The industries also can’t run if the whole staff are self isolating because they have created an environment that allows for easy passage of the virus.
It’s not an either or argument.
It’s a ‘how can we do this most safely, given that we need to do it to make the country work?’
And having appropriate social distancing is a good idea whilst the population isn’t fully vaccinated and specifically when cases are rising.
We are not yet in the place where we can ditch the protective measures yet.

And having appropriate social distancing is a good idea whilst the population isn’t fully vaccinated and specifically when cases are rising.

But you said - and I quote - "It’s only a question of time before one escapes the vaccine. That’s how it works. So, at some point - none of us know when, the vaccines will be evaded - there is no doubt about that. It’s just a letter of when."

So you are absolutely certain that a super mutant vaccine 'escaping' variant is inevitable. That being the case, why bother getting people vaccinated? Surely, in your view, restrictions - and all the economic and social hardship they entail - must be maintained indefinitely? Not much point in vaccines if it's a 'letter' of when, not if, is there?

The estimates suggest that the scheme is responsible for around 8-17% of all infections during the summer months and likely, many more non detected asymptomatic infections, that may have substantially contributed to accelerating the second wave of the pandemic

warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/manage/publications/wp.517.2020.pdf

That study uses rainfall to make the case though. It seems to be a reach, honestly. They even say it’s a ‘back of the envelope calculation’ so take it with a huge grain of salt. Neil Ferguson (somewhat discredited, but again, copious salt) didn’t see any evidence that it did:

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/coronavirus-eat-out-to-help-out-neil-ferguson-rishi-sunak-second-wave-b1447723.html%3famp

Well campaign for better ventilation, you are so far going off on a tangent on this thread, I suspect your motive has nothing to do about your visit out.

If we allow the virus to exist in increasing numbers, we predispose to the variant that will evade the vaccines - it’s a matter of numbers of people with the virus

You can’t close the borders for years on end and no way is everyone on earth going to be vaccinated. So maybe don’t worry about it and live your life as you did before?

@IcedPurple

And having appropriate social distancing is a good idea whilst the population isn’t fully vaccinated and specifically when cases are rising.

But you said - and I quote - "It’s only a question of time before one escapes the vaccine. That’s how it works. So, at some point - none of us know when, the vaccines will be evaded - there is no doubt about that. It’s just a letter of when."

So you are absolutely certain that a super mutant vaccine 'escaping' variant is inevitable. That being the case, why bother getting people vaccinated? Surely, in your view, restrictions - and all the economic and social hardship they entail - must be maintained indefinitely? Not much point in vaccines if it's a 'letter' of when, not if, is there?

At this point, the vaccine evading variant is going to be more likely in somewhere other than the U.K. It will come in from foreign travel, most likely.

So if we have effective measures other than the vaccine, we can have a hope of managing it.
Currently the vaccine is being very effective in unlinking infections from icu and death, but we aren’t ready to relax the other stuff as the infection rages in other countries and we have not closed down the borders.

It will crop up in the U.K. at some point but I doubt that it will have emanated from the U.K.
One way to ensure it will come form here is to not vaccinate us against the virus that’s prevalent in the U.K. just now.
The steps have to be taken sequentially and the impact of each step should be weighed up.
It’s complex.
Just now, we are doing well, but thinking that this means everything is ok is really naive.

Op, I don't want to give you a hard time but I'd say you need to get on top of your health anxiety if you can. It's brilliant that you've had the vaccine. The truth is that you've been double vaccinated, currently covid is much lower, risks are lower and we know that it's close contact with infected people that cause it but that those who are vaccinated are much safer and also less likely to pass it on.

So really, sitting at a table with your family, without a mask after you've been vaccinated really is fine.

@UsedUpUsername

If we allow the virus to exist in increasing numbers, we predispose to the variant that will evade the vaccines - it’s a matter of numbers of people with the virus

You can’t close the borders for years on end and no way is everyone on earth going to be vaccinated. So maybe don’t worry about it and live your life as you did before?

We can take a sensible view about other countries and travel. I feel that everyone thinks all of these decisions are binary. It’s not, this is a complex situation and as such, needs multiple levels of attack that change relative to the risks. Currently the risk of the U.K. developing a vaccine resistant variant is low as there is less transmission in the community (except in certain areas where it is a problem). But other countries where the virus is raging will be the place where the vaccine evading mutant comes from.

If we don’t have robust measures in place, when that one hits our shores, we will be back to where we were IF we have just decided that we are totally fine now and no need to be sensible and socially distance and wear masks and ventilate indoor areas. We also need good track snd trace with a retrospective element and proper understanding in the community about how this virus works snd how it mutates and how transmission takes place.

@Triffid1

Op, I don't want to give you a hard time but I'd say you need to get on top of your health anxiety if you can. It's brilliant that you've had the vaccine. The truth is that you've been double vaccinated, currently covid is much lower, risks are lower and we know that it's close contact with infected people that cause it but that those who are vaccinated are much safer and also less likely to pass it on.

So really, sitting at a table with your family, without a mask after you've been vaccinated really is fine.

Do you know what- as I’m writing all of this, I realise that my health anxiety around this particular issue comes from a place of totally understanding the risks and tbh I am comfortable with my position in this. It’s been really good to formulate responses to your replies as I feel really comfortable in my position and it’s not health anxiety, as far as this is convened, it’s being completely sensible in an ever changing world.

I have health anxiety around a couple of other issues, but it’s become clear to me that this isn’t it!

@Againstmachine

Well campaign for better ventilation, you are so far going off on a tangent on this thread, I suspect your motive has nothing to do about your visit out.

lol- really it did start with the visit out and as I said, working through the replies has helped me hugely. No particular axe to grind, I didn’t come along with a particular agenda. I just wanted to chat about what had happened and also to find out what other people thought. Thanks

it’s being completely sensible in an ever changing world.

No, I don't think worrying about the restaurant, after vaccination etc in your OP is being sensible and in fact it is a lack of understanding of risk. But if you're happy limiting yourself, then of course that's fine.

Currently the vaccine is being very effective in unlinking infections from icu and death, but we aren’t ready to relax the other stuff as the infection rages in other countries and we have not closed down the borders.

So now we get to the real point.

It wasn't about knocking heads with other diners at the restaurant, was it?

@IcedPurple

Currently the vaccine is being very effective in unlinking infections from icu and death, but we aren’t ready to relax the other stuff as the infection rages in other countries and we have not closed down the borders.

So now we get to the real point.

It wasn't about knocking heads with other diners at the restaurant, was it?

Errrm Yep, it was all about the restaurant at the start of the conversation here. And then the different answers and discussions moved the conversation on, like they do. And this involved me answering some of your issues with my thinking and reasoning and so the conversation has moved on to the next thing. When I started it, I didn’t know it would end up here tbh. But here it is. And it’s seems you feel a ‘gotcha’ is required for some reason

I think the comments are fair OP you have made this thread about something else.

And you come across as one of those who goes out once a year then complains that the place you went to has now shut.

IcedPurple

Do people really not understand why others might be nervous in crowded indoor spaces during an ongoing pandemic or are they just being weirdly aggressive?

I can't understand why someone would actively choose to spend time in a crowded indoor space and then complain that it was in fact a crowded indoor space.“

Well quite, if you don’t feel comfortable, which is a perfectly legitimate feeling, just don’t? We won’t be going until our youngest is also vaccinated, out of respect for him and all he’s sacrificed for us this past year.
Until then, it fills me with cheer to see others out and about enjoying life.

Well quite, if you don’t feel comfortable, which is a perfectly legitimate feeling, just don’t? We won’t be going until our youngest is also vaccinated, out of respect for him and all he’s sacrificed for us this past year

If he’s young and healthy, why wait if the rest of you are already fully vaccinated? I just don’t understand.