How many of you have been eating inside at restaurants now?

[Lovelydaybut]

We ended up needing to eat today in a city we were visiting (long story).
Tried lots of outdoor places but no tables free so we went into a huge fairly empty restaurant.
Bit by bit, it filled up and they ended up seating people quite closely together.

I have had both vaccines - second one was around 10 days ago.

Nobody except the waiters had masks on.

Had cake and coffee this morning indoors in a cafe, as limited space outside, though the only one indoors other than the couple who run it.

Only once.
Handpicked restaurant, virtually in the middle of nowhere, which I knew that even in normal times it wouldn't be too full or with tables too close.

Most people sitting at the table weren't wearing masks but people put them when they get up for any reason.

And when I got home, I felt a bit anxious about that.

Why? You have had both your vaccines, and in good time. Your children are highly unlikely to be ill, and have probably already been exposed at school.

What is there to be anxious about? You will have to face up to the idea of no one wearing masks or socially distancing at some point in the not too distant future.

@ClaudiaWankleman

And when I got home, I felt a bit anxious about that.

Why? You have had both your vaccines, and in good time. Your children are highly unlikely to be ill, and have probably already been exposed at school.

What is there to be anxious about? You will have to face up to the idea of no one wearing masks or socially distancing at some point in the not too distant future.

Two answers 1 the restaurant had loads of space, tables at the edges of the room weren’t used at all and the clients were concentrated in the central area, there were definitely enough tables to distance the groups.

1. Why was I anxious!

2.1 there have been a number of significant variants of the original. It’s only a question of time before one escapes the vaccine. That’s how it works. So, at some point - none of us know when, the vaccines will be evaded - there is no doubt about that. It’s just a letter of when. So although I had my second vaccine 10 days before the visit, I know that this isn’t as water tight as we would like to hope 2.2- as stated upthrrad, I have a degree of health anxiety that means that I do get anxious about stuff Which is why I was interested in other views about it.

The trouble is OP that you have anxiety. You can't imagine how people feel who don't have anxiety, and many of them can't understand how you feel. Restaurants have been closed for a long time, have rarely been implicated in much spread and have additional distancing than normal. It feels crowded because you're anxious, not because it's crowded.

It’s only a question of time before one escapes the vaccine. That’s how it works. So, at some point - none of us know when, the vaccines will be evaded - there is no doubt about that. It’s just a letter of when.

A vaccine may become less effective, or need a booster, but 'escape' suggests that we will be back to 0, and that isn't true. We have a greater understanding of the COVID-19 virus, how to treat it and greater immunity as a population (I don't mean herd immunity, I just mean that the vaccines are still effective at reducing disease and many of the transmission symptoms, like coughing).

Are you this worried about norovirus?

@MRex

The trouble is OP that you have anxiety. You can't imagine how people feel who don't have anxiety, and many of them can't understand how you feel. Restaurants have been closed for a long time, have rarely been implicated in much spread and have additional distancing than normal. It feels crowded because you're anxious, not because it's crowded.

The the crowding- were you there? Did you see how it worked? Or are you assuming that because I said I have a health anxiety, my observations are now debatable?

The restaurant did not allow for social distancing- that’s a fact.
And there were a number of tables around the edge of the restaurant that were unused and if they had moved the table that was next to us (4 young adults) and maybe the table that was behind us (I could lean my head back and make contact with the other person’s head) to the sides, they would have achieved the legal definition of social distancing.
That is also a fact.

We have just got back from a 4-night break in York. Ate indoors 3 times a day every day and were in various different bars every night. The place was buzzing.

@ClaudiaWankleman

It’s only a question of time before one escapes the vaccine. That’s how it works. So, at some point - none of us know when, the vaccines will be evaded - there is no doubt about that. It’s just a letter of when.

A vaccine may become less effective, or need a booster, but 'escape' suggests that we will be back to 0, and that isn't true. We have a greater understanding of the COVID-19 virus, how to treat it and greater immunity as a population (I don't mean herd immunity, I just mean that the vaccines are still effective at reducing disease and many of the transmission symptoms, like coughing).

Are you this worried about norovirus?

No I’m not worried about other viruses and bacteria etc as we have a much deeper understanding of them. This coronavirus is emergent and our understanding of it is developing fast, but I think it would be very naive to trust that we have it sorted at this point. The measures that we are taking just now seem to make sense but the risks are contextualised and situational. And that’s why, on reflection, I felt that the situation I’d been in was a bit (and I emphasise a bit) worrying.

I’ve seen the devastation of coronavirus infections in humans and animals and I know how mutations and vaccines work- and it’s far from sorted at this point. It’s a huge amount better than it has been in the U.K., but it’s not over by any stretch of the imagination.

Anyway, my main point of the thread was to ask what people were doing and how they felt about it.
And that’s accomplished lol

1 there have been a number of significant variants of the original.
It’s only a question of time before one escapes the vaccine. That’s how it works. So, at some point - none of us know when, the vaccines will be evaded - there is no doubt about that. It’s just a letter of when.

So what's your plan then? If - as you seem certain - vaccines are inevitably going to be 'escaped' then there seems little point in the whole vaccination programme.

And social distancing isn't sustainable. You're complaining about not being 'distanced' to your liking, but I doubt you would be happy to live indefinitely with your income slashed by at least 50%.

(I could lean my head back and make contact with the other person’s head)

So don't lean your head back then. I manage to get through meals without doing it.

Seriously, if you're going out for a meal and worrying about the theoretical distance between diners' noggins, then maybe best to stay 'safely' at home.

Quite a lot of smug and implicitly - and explicitly - critical replies. Where's the empathy for different circumstances and perspectives?

Different people have different levels of risk aversion for different reasons: what are the numbers like where the OP lives? do they have a particular health condition? have they an elderly relative to support who's already more anxious than they are / lost someone close to Covid / had a traumatic experience in hospital? I don't know. It's nothing to do with me, and, as such, I may comment on how I feel - but I won't judge.

My personal circumstances are that I teach among crowds every day - and have done when cases have been relatively high - so currently prefer to mitigate my proportionately higher risk by going out rather less (another teacher upthread finds their confidence is actually boosted a bit by being used to mask-less crowds - each to their own). I injured my back a year ago and have been left in constant pain and in need of an operation, and the way this has limited my life has compounded my concern that long-Covid could do the same (someone else may respond by wanting to get out there to distract themselves). Anyway, I'm waiting til my second vax kicks in before getting myself back out there, and that's my choice.

There is no right or wrong here. I'd say I can see a bit more irrational anxiety in some of the more extreme responses to the OP than in the OP's concerns. Some of the more hyperbolic comments suggest that if the OP doesn't feel safe now they "never" will (as the Indian variant spreads and the vax programme continues, this seems unlikely!); that the OP has a moral obligation to contribute to keeping restaurants open (er...); that the OP's not going to restaurants is akin to not going out at all and not "embracing life" (well, I like restaurants as much as the next person but...) I do think that some of these actually show, in the sheer strength of feeling about one innocuous query, that we've ALL been left a bit shaken by this nightmare, just in very different ways.

Let's look after each other. :)

@IcedPurple

*1 there have been a number of significant variants of the original. It’s only a question of time before one escapes the vaccine. That’s how it works. So, at some point - none of us know when, the vaccines will be evaded - there is no doubt about that. It’s just a letter of when.*

So what's your plan then? If - as you seem certain - vaccines are inevitably going to be 'escaped' then there seems little point in the whole vaccination programme.

And social distancing isn't sustainable. You're complaining about not being 'distanced' to your liking, but I doubt you would be happy to live indefinitely with your income slashed by at least 50%.

(I could lean my head back and make contact with the other person’s head)

So don't lean your head back then. I manage to get through meals without doing it.

Seriously, if you're going out for a meal and worrying about the theoretical distance between diners' noggins, then maybe best to stay 'safely' at home.

Love the tangential nature of your reply. Made me laugh- thanks.

Both you know I o know that I was saying that I could make contact with the other diner to demonstrate the distance between us, not that this is a particular issue in the way I sit.

And the social distancing is still in force. Like it or not, it’s the law and it has some impact on spread of the virus, as does appropriate ventilation.

And to make the move from the point that escape is inevitable to scrap the vaccines is just hyperbole.

Vaccines do seem to be working just now and that’s fantastic but they aren’t a cast iron guarantee of personal immunity and societal safety.

@Lovelydaybut

And to make the move from the point that escape is inevitable to scrap the vaccines is just hyperbole.

Vaccines do seem to be working just now and that’s fantastic but they aren’t a cast iron guarantee of personal immunity and societal safety.

I'm just wondering what your plan is?

No vaccine ever 'guarantees' anything. That's a given. If the 'fantastic' vaccines aren't enough for you what is?

Both you know I o know that I was saying that I could make contact with the other diner to demonstrate the distance between us, not that this is a particular issue in the way I sit.

Yes, and my point is that if you spend what should be a relaxing and fun time theorising about bumping your noggin off someone else's, then maybe dining out isn't for you at the moment.

@Lovelydaybut please do not feel under pressure to partake in activities that you don't feel comfortable with. Much safer to curl up on the sofa with a takeaway than to mingle with the unmasked and unvaccinated.

Has everyone forgotten that Eat Out To Help Out was one of the main drivers of the second wave?

@Lovelydaybut

And to make the move from the point that escape is inevitable to scrap the vaccines is just hyperbole.

Vaccines do seem to be working just now and that’s fantastic but they aren’t a cast iron guarantee of personal immunity and societal safety.

Well, they aren't a cast iron guarantee, no. But what is your plan if a vaccine escaping variant occurs? Stay indoors forevermore?

[quote NannyAndJohn]@Lovelydaybut please do not feel under pressure to partake in activities that you don't feel comfortable with. Much safer to curl up on the sofa with a takeaway than to mingle with the unmasked and unvaccinated.

Has everyone forgotten that Eat Out To Help Out was one of the main drivers of the second wave?[/quote]
You will be mingling with the unvaccinated whenever you go anywhere. There will be people who don't get the vaccine and you'll have no idea who they are.

Yes, whenever and where ever possible. We were away up north over the weekend and we'd booked a few restaurants. It was absolutely fan-bloody-tastic to feel normal again. To not have to plan meals, cook meals or clean up after meals is bloody amazing for my soul!

Much safer to curl up on the sofa with a takeaway than to mingle with the unmasked and unvaccinated

Is this a joke?

Has everyone forgotten that Eat Out To Help Out was one of the main drivers of the second wave?

Only it was not. Obvious and intuitive hypotheses often turn out to be wrong.

Firstly, the weekly ONS survey suggests that Covid prevalence in the UK stayed flat throughout summer and only started rising during the week ending September 2 (with the percentage of people in the community having Covid going up from 0.05% to 0.07%). EOHO ran from the beginning of August so if it had had significant impact on the virus spread it would have shown up in the ONS numbers earlier.

Secondly, genomic testing indicated that the majority of September cases were "seeded" by returning travellers from Spain.

www.ft.com/content/2782655a-0441-4d38-bb03-5c4e67ead110

A coronavirus variant that originated in Spanish farm workers has spread rapidly through much of Europe since the summer, and now accounts for the majority of new Covid-19 cases in several countries — and more than 80 per cent in the UK.

@MRex

The trouble is OP that you have anxiety. You can't imagine how people feel who don't have anxiety, and many of them can't understand how you feel. Restaurants have been closed for a long time, have rarely been implicated in much spread and have additional distancing than normal. It feels crowded because you're anxious, not because it's crowded.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. As anxious as you feel about things being busy and getting back to normal to soon (in some opinions) I feel just as anxious about lockdown and restrictions carrying on indefinitely. My heart races when I think over the last year and it's not because I've ever been worried about catching covid. I have been and continue to be extremely anxious about the effects covid has had on us indirectly.

The most sensible plan is to have social distancing (done correctly), increased ventilation of indoor spaces, an effective track and trace and vaccines. Oh and local management of outbreaks of different strains.

What’s the problem with that?

And I didn’t ask IF I should be going in and out of restaurants, that’s for me to decide based on the context and risk.

And tbf my point was that it wasn’t that big a deal at the time, it was later that I was reflecting on how it all played out and then I felt it was suboptimal.
You might want to read my posts before assuming you know what I was thinking at the time

Tbh a huge huge issue is ventilation of indoor spaces.

@Lovelydaybut

Tbh a huge huge issue is ventilation of indoor spaces.

Yes.

Recent research suggests that distancing may not be enough and that the risk is similar due to aerosols if you're 2 m apart or 4. Of course it depends on air flow. Air con can stream viral particles in defined directions, so that specific patterns of ventilation can increase the risk for some while reducing it for others in the same room.