I refused the AZ vaccine, now being judged for it

[cosmoswithcovids]

My husband's friend is a Dr, he called yesterday to tell my DH they had spare vaccine and to come over if we wanted one (DH is 33, I'm 30).

We got there and he told us it was AZ, I said I wanted to wait until I was offered the alternative that under 40s are advised to have. My DH looked at me as though I had two heads.

We joined them for drinks at the pub last night where Dr and a couple of other friends were discussing anti-vaxers and I was referenced as one of them. I did reiterate that I'm very keen to be vaccinated but not with AZ. It was then mansplained to me that discrediting the AZ jab (which they've all had and are fiiiiiiiiiiine) was the behaviour of an anti vaxer. I was just meant to feel a bit like an uneducated idiot (I'm not, I'm a solicitor, I'm quite bright) and although my husband says he understood why I didn't want it, the risk is "theoretical" (is it?!)
For the sake of another couple of weeks, I'd rather just wait and have the one which is safer! I'm just feeling a bit rubbish about it all really, I felt quite bounced into it when we got there and it was quite a stress for me having to justify why I didn't want it once we arrived.

The thing about the risks of the AZ vaccine vs Covid is that cost/benefits vary depending on the rates of Covid in the population and the severity of the variant.

Back in Feb, if the AZ vaccine had been the only one available, it would have been a no-brainer to have it at your age, because there was so much Covid circulating that the risks of catching Covid and having it badly were much higher than the tiny risks of having the vaccine.

The risk calculation has now changed as the Covid rates circulating are so low, so it means that the risk of the vaccine is closer to the slim risk of catching covid badly. It doesn't mean that the vaccine is unsafe, it's all a relative calculation. The government has already warned that if the Indian variant causes another wave, then the recommendation for under 40s to have a non-AZ vaccine may end, and they'll give people whatever vaccines they have available, including AZ. This is because the risk balance will have shifted, meaning it's now safer to have the AZ vaccine than Covid.

The risks of the AZ vaccine are still really low, and there's some thinking that those who get a surprise clot post-vaccine, may have an underlying but hidden condition that means they wouldn't fare well with covid either.

I think you were in the right, but it's not a black and white situation, and it varies by location and day.

I think you should also be aware though, before falling out with anyone, that those doctors had two additional things that would influence their perception of the issue - firstly as doctors, their own risk of getting covid and dying with it are much higher than the general population, therefore for them the AZ vaccine will always make sense. Secondly, remember they've had a really grim time over the last year, and having seen hundreds or thousands of Covid victims, the risks of Covid will loom greater in their minds than the tiny number of clot cases, that chances are, they won't actually have seen.

The government is making available different vaccines for different categories of people. The OP wanting the best vaccine for her sex and age and health status is sensible. It isn't being an anti vaxxer or letting the side down.

@Iwonder08

It amazes me how many people, mostly with a handful of GSCEs suddenly developed an indepth knowledge of the molecules structure and the antibodies development mechanisms as well as advanced mathematical statistic to reassure everyone else how stupid they are to doubt or question any vaccine. Suddenly everyone raising concerns is considered antivaxer or labeled a selfish idiot. OP, I sencerely hope you have told your husband and his friends that way they expressed their opinions is totally inappropriate.

Wow. The irony is strong here!

🤦🏻‍♀️

For a 30 year-old female, the risk of dying from a blood clot as a result of the AZ vaccine is higher than the risk of dying from covid due to waiting a few additional weeks for a Pfizer.

It's an entirely different scenario for a 50 year-old female where the risk from covid is much higher.

I've just watched this video. The 7 year old girl's comment is very awe inspiring.
We wouldn't have had these vaccine available for us unless many people volunteered for trials. Now the children are doing it for our children.

edition.cnn.com/2021/05/19/health/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-ages-12-to-15-wellness/index.html

@Branleuse

because we need to take the vaccines that are offered. The risks with AZ have been way overblown and it was clearly a political move. The reccomendation to offer other types is to increase vaccine uptake but it seems to have just made idiots freak out even more about a non issue.

Even the smackhead who begs at the bottom of my road was all worried about not knowing whats in the vaccine, when hes literally on smack

what you are saying is incorrect. the leading scientists are saying that women under a certain age should not have AZ. in this particular situation, it is not a political move or overblown.

[quote cosmoswithcovids]@MRex thank you for the link. I had my coil put in recently after my second child. I was already cautious as I've suffered a previous ectopic with the copper coil.

I don't really like the idea of the hormonal birth control but were sexually active and we don't want anymore children now, although haven't committed to "never" so I'm just trying to be responsible and weigh up risks with birth control. I'm aware everything holds a risk factor but personally I'd decided I would rather wait as per govt advice on the vaccine? [/quote]
Sure. The point is that you've accepted a risk when there were many other options. That happens every day, we all accept certain risks. You've decided you don't want one particular vaccine risk and yet it's lower than other risks you're taking and similar to other vaccine risks of death. So "risk of death" as such isn't what you're actually using to make the decision; that's why it looks like a quirky decision to others. I doubt they would have said anything if you hadn't wasted the dose, but it's done now so best to just forget it all and move on.

The same people who've been shouting about following the science now are shouting about how minimal the risk is and totally ignoring the advice given by the same people they've worshipped this past year. There's a reason why they've pulled it for anyone under 40

There's quite a lot wrong with this.

The people who follow science are quite right to point out that the risk is minimal, because it is, if you follow the science.
The AZ vaccine hasn't been "pulled out for anyone under 40". There is a recommendation to distribute the different vaccines differently. In part, because the risk from the vaccine has been weighed against the risk of COVID for that age group.
It is NOT an indication that the vaccine is inherently dangerous and that people under 40 should avoid it, at all.
Given that there are alternative vaccines available, health authorities are being cautious.
Plus, there's the public perception issue. Better to issue vaccines that people are willing to take than to insist on giving a vaccine when a large percentage of the population is reluctant to take it.

and people shouldn't be questioning anyone for showing concern.

This, though, I agree with.

It is best to educate than to criticise or to make feel guilty.

'Surely if the government advice is to offer an alternative to AZ, this is what vaccination centres will be doing?'

@cosmoswithcovids. IF the alternative is available, unfortunately we can't magic up the vaccine supplies. There are a lot of people to be vaccinated, 1st and 2nd and then maybe boosters too.
And if we really want to get out of this pandemic and control the variants then we need to help the rest of the world with their vaccine supply too.
Personally, while anti vaxxers annoy me I think we. should forget them and focus for now on the willing, although we do need to get to a point of herd immunity.
The people who were hospitalised in the breakout of the Indian variant had NOT been vaccinated with anything.
And that's the difference.

@1678bfj7

The thing about the risks of the AZ vaccine vs Covid is that cost/benefits vary depending on the rates of Covid in the population and the severity of the variant.

Back in Feb, if the AZ vaccine had been the only one available, it would have been a no-brainer to have it at your age, because there was so much Covid circulating that the risks of catching Covid and having it badly were much higher than the tiny risks of having the vaccine.

The risk calculation has now changed as the Covid rates circulating are so low, so it means that the risk of the vaccine is closer to the slim risk of catching covid badly. It doesn't mean that the vaccine is unsafe, it's all a relative calculation. The government has already warned that if the Indian variant causes another wave, then the recommendation for under 40s to have a non-AZ vaccine may end, and they'll give people whatever vaccines they have available, including AZ. This is because the risk balance will have shifted, meaning it's now safer to have the AZ vaccine than Covid.

The risks of the AZ vaccine are still really low, and there's some thinking that those who get a surprise clot post-vaccine, may have an underlying but hidden condition that means they wouldn't fare well with covid either.

I think you were in the right, but it's not a black and white situation, and it varies by location and day.

I think you should also be aware though, before falling out with anyone, that those doctors had two additional things that would influence their perception of the issue - firstly as doctors, their own risk of getting covid and dying with it are much higher than the general population, therefore for them the AZ vaccine will always make sense. Secondly, remember they've had a really grim time over the last year, and having seen hundreds or thousands of Covid victims, the risks of Covid will loom greater in their minds than the tiny number of clot cases, that chances are, they won't actually have seen.

Very good post.

@iseeu

The government is making available different vaccines for different categories of people. The OP wanting the best vaccine for her sex and age and health status is sensible. It isn't being an anti vaxxer or letting the side down.

This ^. I would probably have made a different decision in the op's shoes and had it, but her choice was legitimate too and not anti-vax.

God almighty there is a lot of false information on this thread re risk of AZ. Can posters please go and read the information on the yellow card weekly report www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting#analysis-of-data

there have been 309 people affected by blood clots between age 18 and 93, 56 of which were fatal. There is now some evidence that the reported incidence rate is higher in females compared to men although this is not seen across all age groups and the difference remains small.

You are entitled to your opinion. If you wanted to wait for another vaccine, that is your choice and as you say Government policy. Personally, your husband's friend sounds like a know all and a typical doctor(sadly there are a few of this type around). Know it all but don't seem to listen. I wouldn't get myself upset and just ignore this man.

[quote Nonbibblebibble]@Cornettoninja

'She’s 30, I was under the impression it’s highly unlikely she’ll be offered AZ if she waits for her invitation.'

And I can tell you that there is absolutely no guarantee of that. It all depends on vaccine supplies, and the priority is giving the same vaccine for the 2nd as the 1st. not giving an alternative to AZ to the under 40s.
Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
And the 2nd vaccines are being still given to those who really need them - older people, vulnerable people, front line workers.[/quote]
Fair enough.

My household is a mix of AZ and pfizer due to earlier groupings that just missed the start of concerns about AZ so missed having to make any real judgement call on it all.

I did think that the government rubber stamped the official advice for AZ with future orders they already have secured in mind though so it’s still more likely that under forties will be offered an alternative. Of course that depends on supply and infection rates if you’re in one of the surge areas (but that would change your personal immediate risk any way).

What? There have been millions of deaths from the vaccine? Why hasn't this been reported??

If it hasn’t been reported, how do you know about it? We’d definitely have heard about “millions” of deaths. The bloody scaremongering on here is insane.

The people who follow science are quite right to point out that the risk is minimal, because it is, if you follow the science actually i don't think that this is exactly right as leading science which isn't affiliated to any political body is saying that yes in terms of statistics the risk is low, but they are also saying women who are under 55 should avoid AZ and governments should focus on making other vaccines available for them. But like others have said it isn't absolute - there are other factors - depends on your health status, risk of covid locally, what vaccine is actually available.

I thought females in general were at more risk of blood clots from any cause? I appreciate the numbers have been crunched by people with far more knowledge than me but I’m not sure how much of that knowledge has been twisted in its presentation by the media.

as leading science which isn't affiliated to any political body is saying that yes in terms of statistics the risk is low,
So, you agree with me.

I pointed out, right after the bit you quoted from my post, that it's comparing the relative risks that led to the vaccine not being recommended to under 40s if alternatives are available.
Did you read my entire post, or was it just easier to react to the first line?

If a GP tried to take the moral high ground with me, I'd take them down a peg or two.

National Heroes they are not - cowering away from the public and dishing out painkillers to people who they do deign to speak to. The effects of all this over time and in total could well cause more fatalities than covid.

I know someone who called up with kidney pain - "ah pain - have painkillers" - pain didn't go away - turns out it is a condition that is now irreversible - his kidneys are packing up. I don't know if it could have been cured with prompter action but its possible.

So, you agree with me no, there was a second half to my sentence which disagreed with you! i agreed with a part of what you said, but i said that there was more to it than that. Yes, I did read your full post - it is a question of emphasis - I think science advice against AZ is stronger than you wer saying. I disagreed with other bits of your post too, such as it not being pulled - it has been pulled in some countries to the best of my knowledge. I agreed with bits too. But fundamentally, I think the more this is discussed the better - disagreeing and discussing is good.

It depends on the blood clot type. Pregnancy and birth control might be the main things skewing the stats.

This is useful for stats, though it's US:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2020806/#:~:text=Venous%20thrombosis%20is%20a%20disease,by%20age%2080%20(6).
"Venous thrombosis is a disease of aging, with a low rate of about 1 per 10,000 annually before the fourth decade of life, rising rapidly after age 45 years, and approaching 5–6 per 1000 annually by age 80 (6)."

Well locally here there are 2 vaccine streams and anyone under 40 who turns up for an AZ vaccine is turned away.

The risk of a clot from AZ is 1 in 80,000. Small, but not miniscule. At the rate of Covid at the moment, an AZ vaccine is more risky for a woman of 30 than waiting a couple of weeks for a Pfizer. This is recognized in government guidance.

And I wish people would stop going on about the pill - that's a different type of clot and not as dangerous.

I don't think you were unreasonable OP.

It is not anti-vaxx to go to a vaccination clinic and decide not to have that particular make of vaccine in line with current advice and favour waiting a few weeks until the recommended vaccine is offered.

My area has been running ahead and havjng turned 40 not many weeks earlier, I had AZ just as the news was really breaking about clots and Europe was withdrawing it. At least it was simpler not having that layer of concern added. It's a big grey area and women in their 30s will have different boundaries over the advice given.

Ultimately we have a right to consent to medical treatment and really don't want to be in a society where that is denied to us.

People flinging the term "anti-vaxx" around are not being helpful in encouraging people with concerns to make informed choices. Civil discussion is far more effective than inaccurate insults.

I'm 40 & had the AZ which I didn't want either but when I went it was all they could offer. It was explained to me that the risk was equivalent to a single person in the whole of Nottinghamshire having an issue & this put me at ease.

I had a mild hangover feeling for 24 hours & then nothing after.