Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “will be considered” amid rise in blood clots Thread 3

[Whichjab]

New thread as the MRHA report is out today.

Note this is not an anti vaccination thread.

So based on those statistics for risk 1000 people will have a vaccine and 1 person will Develop a blood clot

Or 1000 people walking down the street and refuse the vaccine 1 person will develop a blood clot.

Yes The vaccination induced thrombocytopenia may have a link to the vaccine but it's still 1:50000 according to the peer reviewed paper!

Does anyone know what the risk of long covid / death or hospitalisation is from not vaccinating?

Also do you all know that covid is a thrombotic disease? So if you get covid you may get a blood clot?!

VITT is different to DVT, it is much more serious illness specific to the adenovirus vaccines, frequently involving cerebral brain clots, and has a high death rate.

www.qcovid.org/Calculation

My risk of covid hospitalisation was 1:2604 and death 1:62500

I think I'll take the vaccine thanks

Oh ands that's no risk factors apart from maybe a tad over weight 10st9

"adenovirus shell in the vaccine, along with proteins from the cells where the vaccine is grown, come into contact with platelets from the blood.
Platelets are best known as colorless cell fragments that rush to the site of an infection or injury, helping the blood congeal to stop bleeding; they also play a key role in the body's immune response.When activated, they surround invaders like bacteria and change shape to release chemical signals they store in granules.
When platelets are activated en masse, as can happen rarely after a person takes the blood thinner heparin or gets the AstraZenecaAstraZeneca vaccine, they release a flood of these signals, Greinacher explained. These blaring signals recruit an ancient and hard-to-control branch of the immune response.
"Imagine this is like a dragon in the cave who was sleeping for a long time [but] which now got alerted by someone's throwing a stone on it," he said. The chemical signals awaken B-cells that then produce massive amounts of antibodies against the platelet factor 4 protein, which helps coordinate blood clotting.
The body erroneously thinks it is reacting to massive amounts of pathogens in the body, so the immune system overshoots. The antibodies bind the platelets, the platelets recruit white blood cells, and "then the whole thing is exploding," he said." - Andreas Greinacher , MD, head of the Institute of Immunology and Transfusion Medicine, University Hospital Greifswald, Germany.

Nobody in this thread is arguing against vaccination. They are questioning the government’s decision to use the AZ vaccine instead of alternatives in age groups that other countries have considered to at risk of VITT.

This is a pro-vaccination thread, see the OP.

@IndigoC

Nobody in this thread is arguing against vaccination. They are questioning the government’s decision to use the AZ vaccine instead of alternatives in age groups that other countries have considered to at risk of VITT.

This is a pro-vaccination thread, see the OP.

This is so true.

I am one of those who was able to find an alternative and have now had their first dose. I am still here on this thread because I want to support others who also want to be vaccinated but are being pushed to have the one they aren't comfortable with having.

If people ARE happy to have AZ then great. That's up to them, but it's up to every individual to decide for themselves.

That calculation is interesting. Looks like I would have been more at risk from AZ.

Michael Makris, Professor of Haemostasis and Thrombosis at The University of Sheffield, UK.

https://twitter.com/ProfMakris

His tweets from yesterday, still asking the same questions as us:

I am pro-vaccine and especially so when it comes to #COVID19. I have participated in the vaccine clinical trial and will do so again. I have had AZ x2. I believe people should be provided with all the available information to allow them to make a decision before vaccination. 1/4

Q1 to
@MHRAgovuk: It is great that you provide the cases of VITT post AZ vaccine by decade of age. Please also provide the number of persons vaccinated with AZ by decade of age so the rates of VITT can be calculated. 2/4

Q2 to
@MHRAgovuk: Have there been any VITT cases after Pfizer vaccination reported? If yes, how many? 3/4

Q3 to
@MHRAgovuk: You say there have been 15 cases of VITT after 2nd AZ dose. What case definition are you using? Do you have haematologists assessing these cases? How many have had cerebral or portal vein thrombosis and how many are anti-PF4 positive? 4/4

The quality of rapid data produced in the UK is incredible. You can show rates of #COVID19 infection by town by day. Yet it is impossible to know how many persons in the UK have had a 1st AZ vaccination by decade of life for persons

I'm going to get pfzier from my GP this morning. I think it's best to avoid the vaccination centres unless they are explicitly doing non-AZ, the volunteers who have already had AZ aren't gonna let one have a non-AZ, the mindset is kinda "if i can have AZ, why can't you?"!

The age difference in the risk is looking more stark than before. Although no age breakdown for doses has been given the latest figures are that roughly the same proportion of the 60-69 and 50-59 categories have now been vaccinated. I don't think the population size of these 2 age bands is markedly different (?).

The number of deaths in the 50-59 group is twice that in the 60-69 and this is mirrored in the underlying cases.

On sex there are 50% more deaths in women than men.

(Beyond age 69 cases decline further but this will be in part be due to more widespread use of Pfizer in this age group).

Therefore it does look like the generalised rate of 1:80,000 is in fact much higher for women under 60, which is in line with the guidance from other countries. Conversely women of a normal weight with no underlying health conditions have a much lower risk profile relative to the male and general population by this age range (50-60 is when the long term impacts of underlying health conditions become widely diagnosed so it is easier to tell which category you are in).

Getting harder and harder not to see this.

Sorry meant to post link to underlying data again for ease of reference.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

Figures analysed above are in tables 5 and 6.

This may be a silly question but how do they calculate dose size for vaccines? Does a 20 stone man get the same dose as an eight stone woman and could this be a reason for sex difference? When I medicate my dogs it is calculated on body weight. Are we humans so different?!

I’m hoping the Winton Centre might create updated graphs. Agree that the risks do clearly go up as we move down the age groups. I am worried too that they might try to give us AZ as second doses or boosters!

@AppleJane

This may be a silly question but how do they calculate dose size for vaccines? Does a 20 stone man get the same dose as an eight stone woman and could this be a reason for sex difference? When I medicate my dogs it is calculated on body weight. Are we humans so different?!

It will be one size fits all. I imagine it would be a logistical nightmare otherwise, but there may also be a medical reason to give everyone the same.

Does anyone know what the risk of long covid / death or hospitalisation is from not vaccinating?

@Whitegrenache

I'm sorry you are having problems with comprehension but as stated in op this is not an anti vaccs thread, posting links to other types of blood clots does nothing to add to this discussion, in fact the moment someone links the pill I think they have been swept away by government propaganda.
I started this thread as I believe in vaccinations, I am willing to admit I'm scared of covid and long covid but as a healthy under 40 I was and am worried about a side effect that was poorly managed (as in slow to respond) by our government. If it is found that there has been a desire to obfuscate the side effects due to the greater good this will have far reaching effects in the future and contribute to future vaccine hesitancy.
AZ is not the only vaccine, the government itself have decided the current risk isn't worth it for under 40s and unsurprisingly those that are a few months over wonder if they should be allowed to chose another.
Unsurprisingly no matter what links you share they were not strong enough arguments for the government to continue vaccinating U40s with AZ and thus do not convince me.

Ok sorry! I was on my high horse last night 🤣

Just remember people Do read these posts and are scared to have any vaccinations at all. I think that's my fear.

As you were fellas

Out of interest, for those who have had a first dose of AZ, would you consider mixing?

And as the second dose occurrences of VITT rise will the government decide to mix?

I know no one can actually answer the second, I'm just musing really

@Whitegrenache this is thread 3. I wouldn't expect anyone to necessarily read the other 2000 posts but all your points and more have been covered numerous times.

We are pro vaccine and feel we have a right to ask questions. We are also helping people to find the vaccine they want, not putting them off but actively encouraging vaccination.

@whataballbag

Out of interest, for those who have had a first dose of AZ, would you consider mixing?

And as the second dose occurrences of VITT rise will the government decide to mix?

I know no one can actually answer the second, I'm just musing really

I've had pfizer as a first jab and would not be willing to have AZ as a mix. But I do know people who would be willing to mix after an AZ first jab so it would be good if they started asking those willing to come forward.

@Whitegrenache

Relative and absolute risk is statistically based on complex maths. So if you want to look at absolute risks of a vaccine then do the maths and make a choice!

If people know the absolute risk for basic things like driving or crossing a road or developing mental health issues or having coronary heart issues or stroke dementia cancer etc... you lot would never do anything other than sleep and eat! Jesus at least base your decisions on clinical data and not mass media!

Disclaimer - I have had a stressful
Day and full of hell!! I am also a vaccination volunteer and have had 2 AZ doses and have been absolutely fine and I'm 44. I also work in the pharmaceutical industry so have a good understanding of medicines regulations and statistics

So why are you here reading this thread and joining in to make people with legitimate concerns fell more rubbish than we aready do? It's literally nine of your business how we are thinking and feeling. We've been through everything you have said on two revious threads and thought about the risk/benefit ratio more than you have. Perhaps move along to another thread.

Definitely not an anti-vaxxers here, in fact I had my Moderna jab within 24 hours of the booking opening for my age group. Was even questioned how I'd managed to book an appointment so early.

This may be a silly question but how do they calculate dose size for vaccines? Does a 20 stone man get the same dose as an eight stone woman and could this be a reason for sex difference? When I medicate my dogs it is calculated on body weight. Are we humans so different?!

I was reading an article the other day about a young guy who was part of the very first Moderna trial round and had a pretty extreme adverse reaction (high fever, fainting) but he had received a very high dose of the vaccine as part of the trial, much more than anyone is actually now given. So the size of the dose definitely matters but probably based on the trials they determine a good amount that is enough but not too much for the majority of adults.

There was also an Italian woman who accidentally received the whole vial's worth (6 doses) instead of just one. She was fine, too. www.euronews.com/2021/05/10/italian-woman-mistakenly-given-six-doses-of-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine

@whataballbag I am considering asking GP for Pfizer dose 2. Spoke to a couple of medic friends. One said “just go with AZ the risk is tiny and the risk of mixing is unknown”. The other said “it’s all unknown, weigh up which risk you’re more willing to take”

Given the increasing evidence that mixing is at least safe (efficacy tbc) I am tempted - not in the least bit fussed about mild short lived side effects so if that’s the only downside that’s fine.

But still stuck as to what to do. No idea if GP will consent, and I’m not exactly keen to be a guinea pig either!

[quote MiniMaxi]@whataballbag I am considering asking GP for Pfizer dose 2. Spoke to a couple of medic friends. One said “just go with AZ the risk is tiny and the risk of mixing is unknown”. The other said “it’s all unknown, weigh up which risk you’re more willing to take”

Given the increasing evidence that mixing is at least safe (efficacy tbc) I am tempted - not in the least bit fussed about mild short lived side effects so if that’s the only downside that’s fine.

But still stuck as to what to do. No idea if GP will consent, and I’m not exactly keen to be a guinea pig either![/quote]
I'm on the exact same page maxi. Couldn't give a shit about the short lived side effects that I had badly after the first AZ anyway. It's the VITT risk I don't like.

[quote nordica]Definitely not an anti-vaxxers here, in fact I had my Moderna jab within 24 hours of the booking opening for my age group. Was even questioned how I'd managed to book an appointment so early.

This may be a silly question but how do they calculate dose size for vaccines? Does a 20 stone man get the same dose as an eight stone woman and could this be a reason for sex difference? When I medicate my dogs it is calculated on body weight. Are we humans so different?!

I was reading an article the other day about a young guy who was part of the very first Moderna trial round and had a pretty extreme adverse reaction (high fever, fainting) but he had received a very high dose of the vaccine as part of the trial, much more than anyone is actually now given. So the size of the dose definitely matters but probably based on the trials they determine a good amount that is enough but not too much for the majority of adults.

There was also an Italian woman who accidentally received the whole vial's worth (6 doses) instead of just one. She was fine, too. www.euronews.com/2021/05/10/italian-woman-mistakenly-given-six-doses-of-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine[/quote]
I did read that about the woman who accidentally had the full vial, Jesus Christ! And she still had to have a booster