To refuse the vaccine for this reason

[SEmyarse]

Goodness know why I'm doing this since I'm most averse to being flamed and I'm going to get grilled alive.

My reason being that I don't think that it will work. I don't mean the vaccine itself, I have no specialist knowledge. I mean the whole strategy of vaccinating everyone.

So we're told that the vaccine is good for personal protection. Got it - no-one wants to die of this nasty disease.
And then we're told that its good to protect those around us. Absolutely got it - even if there's a possibility of nasty side effects, I'm not important in the grand scheme, it's a risk assessment for everyone's benefit.

So of course I'd get the vaccine if those were the only considerations.
But surely that only works if we're isolated from the rest of the world. I know there's been lots of talk of helping poorer countries with their vaccine programmes, but really? We're expecting countries who struggle with persistent poverty, illness, war to prioritise this? It's just not going to happen is it? I just can't see it. And it really feels like we're just doing it to stop them giving it back to us.

And even within our own country, and even with our apparently very successful roll-out, I can't see this being sustainable. We already know that it's going to have to be repeated very frequently. Volunteers won't do it forever, halls etc can't be commandeered forever can they? The numbers are way bigger than the flu scheme.

So then we're back to risk assessment. I'm still not massively bothered by the possibility of side effects, but it does seem unwise to take it if I genuinely don't believe it will work or make things better.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that I'm concerned it's going to make things worse. If there was any way of having the young catch it in fairly quick succession, so from a super spreader, surely that would be safer. It would be transmitted in a smaller number of moves, thus less likely to mutate. As it is though we are forcing it though narrower channels of transmission (by social distancing etc), from person, to person, to person etc, giving it much more chance to change. Of course there is no way of doing this safely though. And then we have absolutely no influence when it lands abroad in much larger populations who often have no choice but to carry on, and there we are with another variant, with quite a possibility it will change enough to be a problem.

I honestly believe that the only sensible use of vaccines is for the most vulnerable, to do our best in an out of control situation.

Let's say for a minute you are correct. That mass vaccination will lead to more problems than it solves with super spreaders etc.

You are only one person with absolutely no influence over this government's vaccine programme. So really when it comes down to it, all you can control is whether you have the vaccine.

As an individual, the vaccine offers you greater protection from covid. If you don't have it, but the vast majority of population has it (which they will) you still end up in your doomsday scenario but you are less protected.

Refusing the vaccine won't achieve anything except leaving you less protected.

Your logic is completely upside down. By vaccinating, we give the virus fewer hosts. We do this by reducing people's susceptibility so they have a lower viral load even if they are infected. A lower viral load means they are less likely to spread the virus, so it has fewer hosts still. Ergo fewer opportunities to mutate, not more.

But the experts tell us it mutates a lot faster

Than what? Flu mutates faster than SARS-CoV2.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/flu-influenza-vaccine/

Flu vaccine info OP.

OP, immunity doesn't 'wear off' like you think. A population with some immunity to a virus will always be more resilient against any of its mutated forms, which is why we aren't constantly getting wiped off the earth by viruses. Take Spanish flu for example - one of the reasons it killed younger people more than old was because the older population had experienced a slightly similar flu strain before. Not the same one, but enough so they didn't die at the same rate.

The absolutely surest way to ensure a vaccination drive won't work is for people not to take the vaccine. Every person who doesn't take the vaccine is a potential incubator of the mutations you are afraid of. It isn't possible to achieve herd immunity via natural means as you seem to be suggesting, it has never happened in the history of the world. We are in an unfortunate position that our successful vaccine rollout is being affected by variants imported by countries slower to administer theirs, and so the process may indeed need to repeat if a vaccine evasive variant arises, but all that means is that it is of global importance to vaccinate as many as possible. With enough effort and resources that is entirely possible to do, as you can see from the eradication of smallpox and near eradication of polio.

But then long term we'll just give boosters to the vulnerable, and most of us will have worn off immunity. so why not do that now?

Because by definition boosters can only be given to people that have had an initial vaccine dose. That's what gets boosted.

I don't get why you think administering a booster programme every year will be impossible when we've been doing annual flu jabs for over 50s and children for years. Quick, easy, efficient. I can't understand why you're unaware of that.

But go ahead. Catch covid. No one else will be affected. apart from the people you might pass it onto and all the health care professionals who treat you but maybe they don't count

@SEmyarse

I don't, this just seems the logical conclusion to everything they tell us about vaccines and how fast they mutate. And also how enormous the world population is.

I am very confused as to why the experts tell us to get jabbed when they tell us the virus mutates quickly and often and is nothing like smallpox etc.

Thus far, the vaccines are effective against all the variants. BioNTech say no tweaks are required for the Pfizer vaccine.

Can you tell us more about this moral dilemma? You think because people in the developing world can’t have the vaccines yet you shouldn’t have yours? Is that essentially it?

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Case in point right here.
Please keep reading, OP. It'd be great if you check the credentials of your sources though, just type in the name of the 'doctor' and follow it with debunked. That usually separates the attention-seeking quacks from the honest scientist.

But the experts tell us it mutates a lot faster

No, they don't.

Anyway, even if you hadn't made that up and they did, the same experts also tell us to get vaccinated. So...

Don't engage, you can't argue with stoopid.

Your op is one of the most nonsensical posts I've ever read on this site. I am utterly baffled by the logic.

Your logic is completely upside down. By vaccinating, we give the virus fewer hosts. We do this by reducing people's susceptibility so they have a lower viral load even if they are infected. A lower viral load means they are less likely to spread the virus, so it has fewer hosts still. Ergo fewer opportunities to mutate, not more.

Yes and as a PP pointed out the lower viral load itself cuts the opportunities to mutate within a single host by drastically reducing replication - even without cutting the risk of onward transmission.

My (current ) husband is 57, my mum's in her 70s. I have 3 kids. Why have I never heard of any of these gettng a flu vaccine? Totally confused since everyone seems to think it's a thing.

You seem confused OP. Just get the jab and move on.

Loads of people get flu vaccines btw. Children, vulnerable and the elderly under NHS programmes. Lots of people’s employers pay for them too.

Sources? Just the bods they put up at the press conferences

I think there’s a very good moral argument for why a vulnerable person in a developing country should get a vaccine before me, but realistically me turning mine down won’t mean they get it. So I will get mine and also give a donation to Vaccinaid www.vaccinaid.org/ to get someone else a vaccine too.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/flu-influenza-vaccine/

Did you miss the media advice re flu jabs being extra important last winter?

@SEmyarse

My (current ) husband is 57, my mum's in her 70s. I have 3 kids. Why have I never heard of any of these gettng a flu vaccine? Totally confused since everyone seems to think it's a thing.

Goodness knows why, but both your mum and husband, assuming they are registered with a GP in England (although I think the situation in Scotland, Wales & NI) should have had an invitation for a free flu jab last year. Your mum should have been invited for the last several years.

@GoldenOmber and the sooner we all get vaccinated in the UK and I, the sooner Covax and others can distribute surplus vaccines to other nations.

@Neonprint

Your op is one of the most nonsensical posts I've ever read on this site. I am utterly baffled by the logic.

That is because there is no logic. The whole thread is bollocks from start to finish and is almost certainly written by an anti-vaxxer.

@GoldenOmber

I think there’s a very good moral argument for why a vulnerable person in a developing country should get a vaccine before me, but realistically me turning mine down won’t mean they get it. So I will get mine and also give a donation to Vaccinaid www.vaccinaid.org/ to get someone else a vaccine too.

This, and thanks for the link GoldenOmber

I’ve asked OP three times to clarify what her OP means but no luck. She has at least admitted that she is confused.

They keep showing us graphs with umpteen mutations on in a very short amount of time. If this is happenng in Britain it must be happening hundredfold across the world.

And while it's all semi-stopped in the uk, isn't it whizzing through billions of people all over the place? By which point it will have significantly changed by the time it gets back here. Surely a worldwide programme could only work in an impossibly short timescale?

Thanks to everyone that's given me info that I can try to look into.

My (current ) husband is 57, my mum's in her 70s. I have 3 kids. Why have I never heard of any of these gettng a flu vaccine? Totally confused since everyone seems to think it's a thing.

Are you in England? Are your three children at school? You should get a permission slip home every year asking for permission for the flu nasal spray. Pre-school if they were registered at a GP, the GP’s surgery or health visitor makes contact.

Unless they are older children perhaps - the programme was only extended to children in 2013 I think, and started with the very young age groups and has been extended over time.

Until this past winter the adult programme has in recent years been over-65s, pregnant women and other risk groups. I think this year it was over-50s.