To refuse the vaccine for this reason

[SEmyarse]

Goodness know why I'm doing this since I'm most averse to being flamed and I'm going to get grilled alive.

My reason being that I don't think that it will work. I don't mean the vaccine itself, I have no specialist knowledge. I mean the whole strategy of vaccinating everyone.

So we're told that the vaccine is good for personal protection. Got it - no-one wants to die of this nasty disease.
And then we're told that its good to protect those around us. Absolutely got it - even if there's a possibility of nasty side effects, I'm not important in the grand scheme, it's a risk assessment for everyone's benefit.

So of course I'd get the vaccine if those were the only considerations.
But surely that only works if we're isolated from the rest of the world. I know there's been lots of talk of helping poorer countries with their vaccine programmes, but really? We're expecting countries who struggle with persistent poverty, illness, war to prioritise this? It's just not going to happen is it? I just can't see it. And it really feels like we're just doing it to stop them giving it back to us.

And even within our own country, and even with our apparently very successful roll-out, I can't see this being sustainable. We already know that it's going to have to be repeated very frequently. Volunteers won't do it forever, halls etc can't be commandeered forever can they? The numbers are way bigger than the flu scheme.

So then we're back to risk assessment. I'm still not massively bothered by the possibility of side effects, but it does seem unwise to take it if I genuinely don't believe it will work or make things better.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that I'm concerned it's going to make things worse. If there was any way of having the young catch it in fairly quick succession, so from a super spreader, surely that would be safer. It would be transmitted in a smaller number of moves, thus less likely to mutate. As it is though we are forcing it though narrower channels of transmission (by social distancing etc), from person, to person, to person etc, giving it much more chance to change. Of course there is no way of doing this safely though. And then we have absolutely no influence when it lands abroad in much larger populations who often have no choice but to carry on, and there we are with another variant, with quite a possibility it will change enough to be a problem.

I honestly believe that the only sensible use of vaccines is for the most vulnerable, to do our best in an out of control situation.

If you don't want it don't get it. No need to justify your reasoning to a bunch of strangers on the internet.

Only as you seem so strident in your viewpoint OP will I offer an explanation.

Yes, it is a worlwide issue, and if the richer countries (eg: UK) get ahead of the virus by vax (even if that involves boosters at a later date) AND stockpile because of their money, then that means more vax to give/donate to poorer countries.

It is in everyone's interest that a global vax program is rolled out - just today Biden announced the increase in USA donation to the global vax program. The UK is doing similar.

You've already convinced yourself OP that you are right, so munch away on your words.

Given that you have no specialist knowledge or expertise, why do you think that your views are helpful or legitimate?

@SEmyarse

You'll all be pleased to know that I've never posted on any other social media (and not on here for years) so I won't be preaching anywhere.

Only my husband knows my views, I don't like having a public profile.
I have posted because I'm so very troubled by my thoughts on the vaccine programme, and was hoping I'd be able to see why everyone has such faith in it.

A couple of pepole have given me food for thought. Most have called me stupid, which tbh is probably pretty accurate, and the core of my problem. I just can't have the vaccine until I feel it's the right thing to do.

It's a massive moral decision. I would feel horrendous if I gave it to someone vulnerable, but I don't feel like that's the big picture at all.

Ok. .

I'm pleased you're not posting on other social media.

What is your DH's view?

I'm sure you're not actually stupid & I'm sorry if I've said things to make you feel stupid. It's unkind, but I'm really fed up
of anti vaxers starting these type of threads & putting peoples health at risk

Big picture -the more people that get the vaccine the safer everyone in the world will be. The healthier the population of our country the more we can help other countries.

What does it matter if everyone needs another vaccination next year (they won't, but even if they did). We can do it, we have orders in place and we have the system in place and if we need them it almost definitely will just be one jab. (And most likely only for the most vulnerable)

If you still aren't convinced, can you try to explain why not.

By your own admission you have no specialist knowledge. Others do, They say vaccinate. What more do you need?

I don't, this just seems the logical conclusion to everything they tell us about vaccines and how fast they mutate. And also how enormous the world population is.

I am very confused as to why the experts tell us to get jabbed when they tell us the virus mutates quickly and often and is nothing like smallpox etc.

As I am sure others have said, they tweak the flu vaccine yearly to cope with its mutations.

Just dont worry about it OP In a few months it wont matter one way or the other. (Except to you, if you're unlucky, of course).

@Ireolu

I am from one of these poorer countries that you describe in your OP and most of my family got the AZ vaccine about 6 weeks ago through the covax scheme after queuing a long while. So yes it is a priority for those countries.

That's great to hear. I hope all of your family stay well x

It would be transmitted in a smaller number of moves, thus less likely to mutate.

You're focusing on a secondary issue. Some people are killed by car airbags when they go off. It doesn't mean it's a good idea to disable all car airbags.

You get the vaccination now because you want to protect yourself and others against the variants that are a threat now. There may or may not be different variants requiring different vaccines in future, that will determine whether you get future vaccinations. Whether or not future vaccinations might be needed has no bearing on whether you should get the one that's available now.

But the experts tell us it mutates a lot faster.

And I admit to being confused about the flu jab programme. I hear it mentioned a lot, but I don't know anyone who's had it, so I assumed it was super rare.

Is it a really recent thing? My first husband was never offered it, and he was ventilator dependant (mobile via face mask), and he was in hospital loads for pneumonia so you'd have thought he'd be classed as vulnerable, but this was 15 years ago? (That he died I mean)

Just get fucking vaccinated and stop being an idiot!

Bollocks.

how is it a massive moral decision to get the vaccine?

This is the bit `I struggle with. Why would we not have an India (or wherever) again and again.
Vaccination. Vaccination is the reason why we won't have an India again and again.
If you can reduce transmission you reduce the opportunity for the virus to mutate, if you reduce the opportunity to mutate you reduce the risk that the mutation will be some super spreadable horror. Also the fewer people catch the virus the fewer mutations can occur and the higher the chances are that existing vaccines will be protective further reducing the risk of spread and even further reducing the risk of mutations and on and on until the pandemic is over.
Vaccination is the answer. Vaccinate everyone and their Grandad's wee dog.

**
This

@SEmyarse

I don't, this just seems the logical conclusion to everything they tell us about vaccines and how fast they mutate. And also how enormous the world population is.

I am very confused as to why the experts tell us to get jabbed when they tell us the virus mutates quickly and often and is nothing like smallpox etc.

They tell us because they know FAR more than you do, how best to deal with this. Why do you presume to know better than they do?

I agree with you. It is under trial still. That is a fact (someone will say it is now, no doubt). There are vulnerable people in other countries needing it more than we do.

Vaccination will slow the mutation rate because less people are infected at the same time and if a vaccinated person is infected, they will clear the infection faster. Say a mutation occurs every million replications, think how long it will take for viable mutation to occur if only 1 person is infected at a time compared to if a million are infected. Now think about what happens if a million replications takes 1 day and an unvaccinated person is infected for 10 days but a vaccinated person clears the infection in 3 days.

So by not getting vaccinated you are actually contributing to speeding up the mutation rate making it more likely that a mutation that can evade the vaccine will arise sooner.

You are right that vaccination can cause selection pressure for virus mutations that evade the vaccination but that is exactly the same for natural immunity.

Also, although it is likely the vaccine will not provide the same level of immunity long term, part of the immune system, B cells and T cells may still have a memory of the virus and spring into action, providing some protection for many years. Just google if you want a full explanation.

@andtheweedonkey

Totally !

I'm not anti-vax. I just can't see how this can possibly work on a worldwide level.

The thing to remember is that there has never, never been a global public health response on this scale. And it’s precisely because if the poorest countries don’t get vaccines the rich countries will also be affected, that will ensure the rich countries make sure it happens.

There’s never been a particularly strong local political case for rich countries to spend a fortune on eg urgently eradicating malaria, or polio, because the former doesn’t affect the rich countries if it runs out of control in the poor, and the latter we have strong vaccine rates in rich countries and a fairly stable virus so little risk of vaccine escape.

As you set out, Covid is a different picture. It mutates faster (though not nearly so fast as flu) and is much more transmissible, and so if it runs unchecked through poor countries, the risk of a vaccine-resistant variant that will affect rich countries is fairly high.

And that’s why rich countries will make sure there are (eventually) sufficient vaccines everywhere. It’s not altruism- it’s self interest.

And remember how new this is - and that when scientists say may about things like boosters or how long immunity will last, it doesn’t mean definitely will - or even necessarily likely! It means they simply don’t know, and are talking about what we might need and preparing for it. Because no one knows how long vaccine immunity will last - just like with all the old tropes about chicken pox vaccine ‘only lasting ten years’ when the scientific language was ‘at least ten years’ because that’s how long the vaccine had been in widespread use! It’s at 20 now…

The other thing to consider is that even if variants emerge which have have some ability to evade the vaccines, in that more people get infected than with 'older' strains, the chances are that they will still offer a fair degree of protection against severe disease and death. It's not an all-or-nothing thing. And if we do see variants that put us right back to square one, we can be much quicker off the marks with vaccinating people because we know they work and can be quickly tweaked.

The other point - and I'm really not intending to be rude - but you say you've listened to the scientists and have reached this conclusion based on your understanding. There conclusions are completely different, so why do you think you know better, when you've admitted that you have limited knowledge and no expertise? Sometimes you just have to trust the people who do have the knowledge and expertise.

@loulouljh

I agree with you. It is under trial still. That is a fact (someone will say it is now, no doubt). There are vulnerable people in other countries needing it more than we do.

Bloody hell, don't you start.

If you believe it's still 'in trial' (it's not) why do you think we should give it to poorer countries? Are their lives not as valuable as ours

I am very confused as to why the experts tell us to get jabbed when they tell us the virus mutates quickly and often and is nothing like smallpox etc.

All viruses mutate. Smallpox too, measles too. Mutation is just like a typo in reproduction, it’s not like Wolverine in X-Men getting super powers.

There is no mutation of this vaccine so far that means the vaccines we’ve got don’t work. Even if one develops in future, it’s only got a limited number of mutations it can develop before it stops being able to bind onto human cells so well.

Flu mutates really well and it has a few virus tricks this one can’t do. But we manage to adapt flu vaccinations fast to counter that.

It's a massive moral decision. I would feel horrendous if I gave it to someone vulnerable, but I don't feel like that's the big picture at all
If you give it to someone vulnerable it will feel like the big picture to them.