To refuse the vaccine for this reason

[SEmyarse]

Goodness know why I'm doing this since I'm most averse to being flamed and I'm going to get grilled alive.

My reason being that I don't think that it will work. I don't mean the vaccine itself, I have no specialist knowledge. I mean the whole strategy of vaccinating everyone.

So we're told that the vaccine is good for personal protection. Got it - no-one wants to die of this nasty disease.
And then we're told that its good to protect those around us. Absolutely got it - even if there's a possibility of nasty side effects, I'm not important in the grand scheme, it's a risk assessment for everyone's benefit.

So of course I'd get the vaccine if those were the only considerations.
But surely that only works if we're isolated from the rest of the world. I know there's been lots of talk of helping poorer countries with their vaccine programmes, but really? We're expecting countries who struggle with persistent poverty, illness, war to prioritise this? It's just not going to happen is it? I just can't see it. And it really feels like we're just doing it to stop them giving it back to us.

And even within our own country, and even with our apparently very successful roll-out, I can't see this being sustainable. We already know that it's going to have to be repeated very frequently. Volunteers won't do it forever, halls etc can't be commandeered forever can they? The numbers are way bigger than the flu scheme.

So then we're back to risk assessment. I'm still not massively bothered by the possibility of side effects, but it does seem unwise to take it if I genuinely don't believe it will work or make things better.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that I'm concerned it's going to make things worse. If there was any way of having the young catch it in fairly quick succession, so from a super spreader, surely that would be safer. It would be transmitted in a smaller number of moves, thus less likely to mutate. As it is though we are forcing it though narrower channels of transmission (by social distancing etc), from person, to person, to person etc, giving it much more chance to change. Of course there is no way of doing this safely though. And then we have absolutely no influence when it lands abroad in much larger populations who often have no choice but to carry on, and there we are with another variant, with quite a possibility it will change enough to be a problem.

I honestly believe that the only sensible use of vaccines is for the most vulnerable, to do our best in an out of control situation.

[quote JesusIsAnyNameFree]@katylees

Oh, how's that then?

And you never answered the big question, unless I missed it.
We can't treat both covid patients and cancer patients very easily during big spikes. So what do we actually do?
You don't think we can leave cancer patients at home to die, which of course is true. That's horrible. But what do we do when hospitals are overwhelmed with covid patients and it isn't safe for someone with cancer? Do we deny covid patients treatment in favour of cancer patients?[/quote]
What do we do when hospitals are overwhelmed? We build more like the florence nightingage ones.. you know the ones that havent been used bar one and been demolished

Do you think OP declining to be vaccinated is going to change the government's strategy and her vaccine is going to be sent to the developing world?

I think OP just wanted to discuss her thoughts. What's the crime in that? Blimey.

I think you are confusing human rights with a right in society based on law and taxation purely dependent on what country you live in

I’m suggesting these conversation will get plenty heated in the next little while and ways of managing competing ‘rights’
will have to be explored.

It’s been relatively easy to be anti vac so far. There have been little to no downsides for those people as they can rely on everyone else to take the risks to protect them. That dynamic looks set to change.

@GoldenOmber

that leaves thousands of people in abject poverty with cuts across all manner of things, that has escalating knife crime, disgusting anti semitism across the board

Okay, and in what way does ‘some people on Mumsnet disapprove of my decision not to get vaccinated’ relate to poverty and knife crime and antisemetism?

Nobody’s making you get vaccinated, the government is staggeringly unlikely to bring in compulsory vaccination as policy. So you’re fine?

A poster was talking about " what society thinks of the unvaccinated". My point is who cares, it's a fairly disgusting society anyway.. as for vaccines not being mandatory, the venom targeted towards those who make the decision not to take it is close to rage you would expect to see from a rabies infected dog foaming at the mouth. It's hardly indicative of it being "voluntary " is it- the real selfishness comes from people who are terrified of covid themselves expecting everyone else to be or demanding people risk their health to protect their own relatives. It doesn't get much more selfish than that.

Or are you of the thinking that you will just take the risk and if you get covid then you will either have limited symptoms or if it’s severe you are confident there will be a hospital bed waiting for you?

You mean like I and millions of other have being doing throughout the pandemic? Providing services that you yourself have no doubt used without a thought for the safety of the staff required to provide those services.
See its this faux concern for others that is getting annoying. Fine to to be concerned for yourself but let's stop dressing it up.

Oh and yes I did get covid, as did all my colleagues age ranging from 30 - 60, we are all fine, no hospital required, like most people.

@TheKeatingFive

I think you are confusing human rights with a right in society based on law and taxation purely dependent on what country you live in

I’m suggesting these conversation will get plenty heated in the next little while and ways of managing competing ‘rights’
will have to be explored.

It’s been relatively easy to be anti vac so far. There have been little to no downsides for those people as they can rely on everyone else to take the risks to protect them. That dynamic looks set to change.

No dynamic is changing, huge swathes of ethnic minorities wont take the vaccine for eg so unless you want the racism claims whether justified or not, probably time to pipe down, grow a spine and face the world accepting the fact not everyone is as terrified of covid as you clearly are.

A poster was talking about " what society thinks of the unvaccinated".

That was me, and that’s not what I said.

This seems to be a very emotive subject for you and you are clearly arguing with what you imagine people must think/say/believe rather than the words people are actually saying. Which makes it a bit challenging to have a conversation.

close to rage you would expect to see from a rabies infected dog foaming at the mouth

It isn’t, though, is it? If you look at what people are actually saying to you here, it isn’t.

the fact not everyone is as terrified of covid as you clearly are.

I’m not the slightest bit terrified of Covid as a quick look at my posting history will confirm.

Unlike you, however, I understand the implications for society of large numbers refusing a vaccine.

probably time to pipe down

Yeah, I won’t be doing that

Well I will be piping down as I have to drive home- I will see if there are any sensible replies when I return but doubt it lol

@GoldenOmber

A poster was talking about " what society thinks of the unvaccinated".

That was me, and that’s not what I said.

This seems to be a very emotive subject for you and you are clearly arguing with what you imagine people must think/say/believe rather than the words people are actually saying. Which makes it a bit challenging to have a conversation.

close to rage you would expect to see from a rabies infected dog foaming at the mouth

It isn’t, though, is it? If you look at what people are actually saying to you here, it isn’t.

I have to agree with your assessment here.

The vaccines appear to not stop transmission as much as we were told

Apart from the vaccines given so far in the UK and in Israel. In the UK yesterday only 7 people died from Covid.

The numbers in the USA have dropped significantly in recent weeks also - where they have been vaccinating large numbers of people.

@SEmyarse

Don't be utterly selfish to those around you and get a vaccine.

How is it selfish to not get the vaccine? What the fuck has it got to do with anyone else? If you've got your vaccine, you're safe ain't ya? Your friends and relatives have their vaccine? Sound then. What's the problem? Mind your business.

@eandz13

Because you are more likely to spread the virus.

Same reason to wear a mask - to protect others. There was a large contingent of selfish people who don't like doing that either.

It's not that hard to understand - mind your business too and have a chomp on this

@katylees
*
A poster was talking about " what society thinks of the unvaccinated". My point is who cares, it's a fairly disgusting society anyway.. as for vaccines not being mandatory, the venom targeted towards those who make the decision not to take it is close to rage you would expect to see from a rabies infected dog foaming at the mouth. It's hardly indicative of it being "voluntary " is it- the real selfishness comes from people who are terrified of covid themselves expecting everyone else to be or demanding people risk their health to protect their own relatives. It doesn't get much more selfish than that.*

Have you considered your own OTT rage?

Have a good drive home, busy day in the office today was it?

Apart from the vaccines given so far in the UK and in Israel. In the UK yesterday only 7 people died from Covid.

The numbers in the USA have dropped significantly in recent weeks also - where they have been vaccinating large numbers of people.

Yes, its almost summer, when winter bugs usually subside. Remember last summer? Here in Scotland we were out of lockdown, had no vaccines and zero covid deaths all summer, with no vaccines 🤷‍♀️

@katylees

And those were built for more covid patients. We clearly needed the hospitals to treat covid, we couldn't have just sent the covid patients to the Nightingales, that wouldn't have been enough. We couldn't send cancer patients to the Nightingales either.
The hospitals haven't been a safe environment for someone with cancer and the doctors and nurses have been treating people urgently in need of care. What could they really have done differently, other than saying "Look, I know you're suffocating, but we need to move on from this virus now. It's been long enough. So I'm going to go treat this person with cancer who isn't urgently in need of help instead. Good luck though"
There's only so much they can do, and I think they've done their best.

That said, I have no idea why GPs have been so difficult to see face to face. I'm sure a lot of people would have been happy meeting in a well ventilated tent in the car park when they were desperate to see someone in person.

Spot on. Why cant I decide what to do with MY body? I am find to take my chances with the virus it has a 0.002% IFR for my age it's hardly Ebola. The gov could of handled this easily by shutting borders in the beginning and vaccinating the vulnerable only. I do not want it and will not be getting it and I have no idea why these people have so much trust in the government approved scientists when they let the virus in the country with arms open and are doing the same now with the Indian variant. They cant be that incompetent unless its intentional. Anyway I wont be getting it as usually people get paid for being in a medical trial and this is not and I have no desire to permanently alter my immune system, risk ADE, be dependent on endless booster shots for life from morally questionable pharmaceutical companies who wont even release animal trial studies to the public

@springblossom2 more likely to spread the virus to whom? Those protected by their vaccine? Or those who have also refused the vaccine and are willing to take their (extremely likely to survive and be fine) chances? Doesn't it allegedly reduce your chances of catching the virus by up to 90%? So what's your problem? You're safe. Let people worry about themselves and poke your fucking nose out

@katylees

I’m really interested in you invoking human rights as part of your argument. Is there not a basic human right to liberty, and not to be required by law to stay in your home?

If you want to bring human rights into the argument, You need to engage with the fact that the consequence of too many not getting the vaccine will lead to more lockdowns and further horrific infringements of human rights

Anyway I’m not saying that you should be forced to get a vaccine, because I do believe in human rights. I’m saying a consequence of you exercising this right, for fairly spurious reasons, is it the rest of us risk having our fundamental rights taken from us again.

[quote JesusIsAnyNameFree]@katylees

And those were built for more covid patients. We clearly needed the hospitals to treat covid, we couldn't have just sent the covid patients to the Nightingales, that wouldn't have been enough. We couldn't send cancer patients to the Nightingales either.
The hospitals haven't been a safe environment for someone with cancer and the doctors and nurses have been treating people urgently in need of care. What could they really have done differently, other than saying "Look, I know you're suffocating, but we need to move on from this virus now. It's been long enough. So I'm going to go treat this person with cancer who isn't urgently in need of help instead. Good luck though"
There's only so much they can do, and I think they've done their best.

That said, I have no idea why GPs have been so difficult to see face to face. I'm sure a lot of people would have been happy meeting in a well ventilated tent in the car park when they were desperate to see someone in person.[/quote]
Not sure about where you live but where I live no GPs have car parks, and surgeries are in oldish houses on residential streets.

I agree in general about GPs being more accessible, but there needs to be care taken with e.g. waiting rooms, etc. Again, the waiting room in my surgery is tiny, and poorly ventilated - great place to get the flu, colds, and probably covid!

@JesusIsAnyNameFree

If the argument is " well they can refuse but deny them basic rights " presumably everyone on here doesnt eat junk food, smoke, drink etc to protect the fabled nhs

An alcoholic doesn't drink out of stupidity. People refuse the vaccine out of stupidity though.

It is stupid to not want to take an experimental vaccine from companies that have lied, faked trial results and harmed people and get permanent changes to the innate immune system by a brand new type of vaccine technology that has not been used for 10 years as all previous attempts in using them resulted in disaster and have endless shots for something that has nearly 0 risk of harming them? Lol I think it's the opposite I have had covid and it was nothing to me as I do not have any underlying conditions if you want it get it but you have no right to tell me what to put in my body. The stupid one here is someone that blindly trusts pharmaceutical companies that are known liars, the government and gov approved scientists who have handled the whole situation appallingly

@NearlyAlwaysInsane

In a village where the GP oddly has parking I guess😂

Point is though, they could have set something like that up in the nearby coop car park or something. Just anything to be able to see people when they needed it.

@SEmyarse

This is the bit `I struggle with. Why would we not have an India (or wherever) again and again.

Have you heard of travel vaccinations? I had to have yellow fever in Tanzania, sometimes it's rabies, maybe in the future it's COVID. The UK even had quarantine for rabies in living history.

Everyone is working on best estimation because it's a new virus. Chances are your best guess isn't quite as good as the considered opinion of a phd epidemiologist. I mean there's a million to one chance you've accidentally stumbled on the truth, but it's really unlikely.

It reminds me of this

@Alonim

Do you think OP declining to be vaccinated is going to change the government's strategy and her vaccine is going to be sent to the developing world?

I think OP just wanted to discuss her thoughts. What's the crime in that? Blimey.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with her discussing her thoughts, however misguided they are.

I asked you the question why do you think it is a "good point" to decline the vaccine as she thinks it is selfish to protect herself because she (incorrectly) believes this: I know there's been lots of talk of helping poorer countries with their vaccine programmes, but really? We're expecting countries who struggle with persistent poverty, illness, war to prioritise this? It's just not going to happen is it? I just can't see it. And it really feels like we're just doing it to stop them giving it back to us.

How is declining the vaccine going to make a difference?