To refuse the vaccine for this reason

[SEmyarse]

Goodness know why I'm doing this since I'm most averse to being flamed and I'm going to get grilled alive.

My reason being that I don't think that it will work. I don't mean the vaccine itself, I have no specialist knowledge. I mean the whole strategy of vaccinating everyone.

So we're told that the vaccine is good for personal protection. Got it - no-one wants to die of this nasty disease.
And then we're told that its good to protect those around us. Absolutely got it - even if there's a possibility of nasty side effects, I'm not important in the grand scheme, it's a risk assessment for everyone's benefit.

So of course I'd get the vaccine if those were the only considerations.
But surely that only works if we're isolated from the rest of the world. I know there's been lots of talk of helping poorer countries with their vaccine programmes, but really? We're expecting countries who struggle with persistent poverty, illness, war to prioritise this? It's just not going to happen is it? I just can't see it. And it really feels like we're just doing it to stop them giving it back to us.

And even within our own country, and even with our apparently very successful roll-out, I can't see this being sustainable. We already know that it's going to have to be repeated very frequently. Volunteers won't do it forever, halls etc can't be commandeered forever can they? The numbers are way bigger than the flu scheme.

So then we're back to risk assessment. I'm still not massively bothered by the possibility of side effects, but it does seem unwise to take it if I genuinely don't believe it will work or make things better.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that I'm concerned it's going to make things worse. If there was any way of having the young catch it in fairly quick succession, so from a super spreader, surely that would be safer. It would be transmitted in a smaller number of moves, thus less likely to mutate. As it is though we are forcing it though narrower channels of transmission (by social distancing etc), from person, to person, to person etc, giving it much more chance to change. Of course there is no way of doing this safely though. And then we have absolutely no influence when it lands abroad in much larger populations who often have no choice but to carry on, and there we are with another variant, with quite a possibility it will change enough to be a problem.

I honestly believe that the only sensible use of vaccines is for the most vulnerable, to do our best in an out of control situation.

If you think the answer is to delay operations / treatment where an estimated number of tens of thousands of lives have been lost due to non covid related matters with apparent life saving lockdowns good for you

But how can you maintain things like cancer treatments with hospitals overrun with infectious diseases like Covid?

You aren’t thinking this through.

I suppose you've not heard of the pneumonia and the shingles jab either?

@SlipperyDippery

What would you call patients being treated in corridors drinking water from vases then in 2019?

Did the NHS cancel elective procedures to anything like the same extent in 2019 to make way for flu patients?

How many patients were admitted to the NHS with flu in 2019 vs covid during the peaks?

The flu death tolls are a tragedy, and I accept we are going to have to see covid death tolls as part of life going forwards. But well over 100,000 people have died from covid. The NHS may well struggle every year but surely you can see this is a massive escalation?

Well over 100,000 havent " died of covid" in the uk. Covid deaths for tens of thousands of people are due to covid being present at time of death not as the principle cause.. do you actually read how the ONS registers deaths or just following MSM articles in papers? It's widely accepted that there are huge numbers of people that have " died of covid " where it wasn't the cause of death. There is a difference between dying with and dying due to covid

@TheKeatingFive

If you think the answer is to delay operations / treatment where an estimated number of tens of thousands of lives have been lost due to non covid related matters with apparent life saving lockdowns good for you

But how can you maintain things like cancer treatments with hospitals overrun with infectious diseases like Covid?

You aren’t thinking this through.

Cancer treatments for thousands of people have already been delayed causing deaths- tens of thousands

Cancer treatments for thousands of people have already been delayed causing deaths- tens of thousands

Again, I’m asking you to engage with the point.

How could they continue, with vulnerable, immuno-compromised patients, in a hospital with high levels of infectious disease present?

do you actually read how the ONS registers deaths or just following MSM articles in papers?

ONS counts deaths “due to” Covid-19 and deaths “involving” Covid-19, going by what’s on the death certificate.

"Well over 100,000 havent " died of covid" in the uk. Covid deaths for tens of thousands of people are due to covid being present at time of death not as the principle cause.. do you actually read how the ONS registers deaths or just following MSM articles in papers? It's widely accepted that there are huge numbers of people that have " died of covid " where it wasn't the cause of death. There is a difference between dying with and dying due to covid"

COVID-19 is the underlying cause of death in around 92% of deaths where it was mentioned on the death certificate.

From: www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathswherecovid19wastheprimarycausein2020

@TheKeatingFive

Cancer treatments for thousands of people have already been delayed causing deaths- tens of thousands

Again, I’m asking you to engage with the point.

How could they continue, with vulnerable, immuno-compromised patients, in a hospital with high levels of infectious disease present?

so leaving them to die at home is preferable? The NHS sent thousands to die in care homes with covid ripping through the vulnerable so hardly the beacon of hope and medical excellence.

Regarding how ONS registers deaths in reply to the earlier poster talking about over 100 k deaths in the Uk

"Because of the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, our regular weekly deaths release now provides a separate breakdown of the numbers of deaths involving COVID-19. That is, where COVID-19 or suspected COVID-19 was mentioned anywhere on the death certificate, including in combination with other health conditions. If a death mentions COVID-19, it will not always be the main cause of death, it will sometimes be a contributary factor. "

A 95 year old in hospital with terminal cancer near the end of life that has covid at time of death who passes away has not " died of covid" yet it's registered as a covid death. The fact the average age of death from covid is higher than life expectancy should tell you something- it's a nasty virus but I read someone comparing it with Ebola the other day showing a lack of perspective in assessing risks for all our finite lives.

I have things to do this afternoon, enjoy your day regardless of your vaccine decisions

[quote Cheekyweegobshite]"Well over 100,000 havent " died of covid" in the uk. Covid deaths for tens of thousands of people are due to covid being present at time of death not as the principle cause.. do you actually read how the ONS registers deaths or just following MSM articles in papers? It's widely accepted that there are huge numbers of people that have " died of covid " where it wasn't the cause of death. There is a difference between dying with and dying due to covid"

COVID-19 is the underlying cause of death in around 92% of deaths where it was mentioned on the death certificate.

From: www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathswherecovid19wastheprimarycausein2020[/quote]
"The underlying cause of death is defined as the health condition or event that started the train of events leading to death and is worked out according to rules from the World Health Organisation "

The train of events such as pneumonia for eg hardly effects younger people which is why the average age of death from covid is 82

so leaving them to die at home is preferable?

Now where did I say that?

Of course not.

You don’t seem able to engage with the question about how a health service, overrun with Covid patients, can give others the treatment they need.

Or are you advocating withholding treatment from Covid patients?

@TheKeatingFive

so leaving them to die at home is preferable?

Now where did I say that?

Of course not.

You don’t seem able to engage with the question about how a health service, overrun with Covid patients, can give others the treatment they need.

Or are you advocating withholding treatment from Covid patients?

Covid targets primarily the elderly who have now been vaccinated- if you are continuing " lockdowns " any further delaying treatment for younger people the tens of thousands of younger lives lost will continue to grow for a disease which most don't know they have.

If protecting the fabled NHS needs lockdowns and vaccines for people that aren't at real risk of covid having already given us one of the highets death rates per capita in the world maybe it is the problem rather than the solution. Why is it countries ( developed ones) with no NHS have lower waiting times for cancer/ heart disease in virtually every country compared to here?

The train of events such as pneumonia for eg hardly effects younger people which is why the average age of death from covid is 82

Eh? What's your point? ICUs weren't overwhelmed with 82 year olds. I know because I work in one.

And you either don't understand or choose to misrepresent why the average age of death can be greater than average life expectancy. I despise people like you, who sit at home telling lies and minimising the impact of covid to those of us who witnessed it first hand.

Covid targets primarily the elderly who have now been vaccinated

I agree, it does, but that’s quite a swerve you’ve made already from “most ‘Covid deaths’ weren’t deaths caused by Covid” to “okay they were, but they were mostly old people.”

@TheKeatingFive

Yeah, they won't admit that though. I've been banging my head against this particular wall for over a year now.

Covid targets primarily the elderly who have now been vaccinated

Firstly a wide range of age groups have been seriously ill from Covid. Secondly, there will be a certain amount of vulnerable people who can’t be vaccinated or for whom it won’t work well.

The higher numbers that get the vaccine, the greater safety for all and the better chance of the NHS coping and being able to service all other health needs. None of that is disputable.

[quote JesusIsAnyNameFree]@TheKeatingFive

Yeah, they won't admit that though. I've been banging my head against this particular wall for over a year now.[/quote]
I’ve found people either simply ignore it or are deep denial about it hence the spawning of a million shoddy conspiracy theories and disinformation. It doesn’t seem to occur to people that it shouldn’t be so hard to prove a fact.

Yeah, they won't admit that though. I've been banging my head against this particular wall for over a year now.

It’s very frustrating.

Such a disingenuous position.

@Cheekyweegobshite

The train of events such as pneumonia for eg hardly effects younger people which is why the average age of death from covid is 82

Eh? What's your point? ICUs weren't overwhelmed with 82 year olds. I know because I work in one.

And you either don't understand or choose to misrepresent why the average age of death can be greater than average life expectancy. I despise people like you, who sit at home telling lies and minimising the impact of covid to those of us who witnessed it first hand.

A gobshite by name and nature.. as if someone like you works in healthcare. Behave

@GoldenOmber

Covid targets primarily the elderly who have now been vaccinated

I agree, it does, but that’s quite a swerve you’ve made already from “most ‘Covid deaths’ weren’t deaths caused by Covid” to “okay they were, but they were mostly old people.”

I never said " ok they were".. seems to be the continual desperate strawman arguments to convince people covid is the black death and all age groups should take the vaccine. Anything else?

I think the idea of an overwhelmed health service - a really overwhelmed one, like some Indian cities have seen, not just struggling under NHS winter pressure - feels either too alien or too scary or both to people.

There’s a big difference between “sorry, we had to treat your mum in a corridor for a while because the wards were busy” and “sorry, your mum died while she was waiting outside for someone to die and free up a space, but we’d already run out of oxygen anyway.”

The higher numbers that get the vaccine, the greater safety for all and the better chance of the NHS coping and being able to service all other health needs. None of that is disputable

Exactly. We aren’t eradicating covid, we’re raising the bar of what we can handle. January triggered a lockdown with a peak of c60k infections per day, maybe with vaccinations we can double or treble that tolerance (meaning lower restrictions) but we simply don’t know enough about how the vaccines will perform yet.

seems to be the continual desperate strawman arguments to convince people covid is the black death

No one’s saying that.

They’re saying it can overwhelm the health service without sufficient vaccine uptake.

If you disagree, show us how this isn’t the case.

seems to be the continual desperate strawman arguments

Come across that a lot do you? I wonder what the common denominator could possibly be?

I never said " ok they were".

You said the ONS counted all deaths involving Covid ad ‘Covid deaths’ and that most of these people didn’t die of covid.

Several people pointed out to you that the ONS counts deaths where covid is the cause of death, and that these account for almost all ‘Covid deaths’. So yes, they did die of covid.

In response to which, you said: “The train of events such as pneumonia for eg hardly effects younger people which is why the average age of death from covid is 82”

@TheKeatingFive

Covid targets primarily the elderly who have now been vaccinated

Firstly a wide range of age groups have been seriously ill from Covid. Secondly, there will be a certain amount of vulnerable people who can’t be vaccinated or for whom it won’t work well.

The higher numbers that get the vaccine, the greater safety for all and the better chance of the NHS coping and being able to service all other health needs. None of that is disputable.

You seem to keep switching the reasons round for getting vaccinated.. now it is vulnerable people who can't be vaccinated being trotted out.

I accept the argument many may fit in that category but ultimately it boils down to this question. Does every sentient human being have a right to make a decision on whether to take an injection which has a small chance of damaging their health/life for a disease that poses little threat to them. Regardless of what you think or anyone else on here the answer to that question is yes which is the end of the matter