To refuse the vaccine for this reason

[SEmyarse]

Goodness know why I'm doing this since I'm most averse to being flamed and I'm going to get grilled alive.

My reason being that I don't think that it will work. I don't mean the vaccine itself, I have no specialist knowledge. I mean the whole strategy of vaccinating everyone.

So we're told that the vaccine is good for personal protection. Got it - no-one wants to die of this nasty disease.
And then we're told that its good to protect those around us. Absolutely got it - even if there's a possibility of nasty side effects, I'm not important in the grand scheme, it's a risk assessment for everyone's benefit.

So of course I'd get the vaccine if those were the only considerations.
But surely that only works if we're isolated from the rest of the world. I know there's been lots of talk of helping poorer countries with their vaccine programmes, but really? We're expecting countries who struggle with persistent poverty, illness, war to prioritise this? It's just not going to happen is it? I just can't see it. And it really feels like we're just doing it to stop them giving it back to us.

And even within our own country, and even with our apparently very successful roll-out, I can't see this being sustainable. We already know that it's going to have to be repeated very frequently. Volunteers won't do it forever, halls etc can't be commandeered forever can they? The numbers are way bigger than the flu scheme.

So then we're back to risk assessment. I'm still not massively bothered by the possibility of side effects, but it does seem unwise to take it if I genuinely don't believe it will work or make things better.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that I'm concerned it's going to make things worse. If there was any way of having the young catch it in fairly quick succession, so from a super spreader, surely that would be safer. It would be transmitted in a smaller number of moves, thus less likely to mutate. As it is though we are forcing it though narrower channels of transmission (by social distancing etc), from person, to person, to person etc, giving it much more chance to change. Of course there is no way of doing this safely though. And then we have absolutely no influence when it lands abroad in much larger populations who often have no choice but to carry on, and there we are with another variant, with quite a possibility it will change enough to be a problem.

I honestly believe that the only sensible use of vaccines is for the most vulnerable, to do our best in an out of control situation.

OP - you are making a good point. And scientists have also said much the same.

Isn't WHO saying that vaccinations should be given to poorer countries rather than to our children for just this same reason?

now it is vulnerable people who can't be vaccinated being trotted out.

It’s both. HTH.

Does every sentient human being have a right to make a decision on whether to take an injection which has a small chance of damaging their health/life for a disease that poses little threat to them.

It’s a good question. However if your ‘rights’ conflict with mine to have a functioning health service and to live my life unfettered by lockdowns, we’ve got some problems brewing.

@GoldenOmber

I never said " ok they were".

You said the ONS counted all deaths involving Covid ad ‘Covid deaths’ and that most of these people didn’t die of covid.

Several people pointed out to you that the ONS counts deaths where covid is the cause of death, and that these account for almost all ‘Covid deaths’. So yes, they did die of covid.

In response to which, you said: “The train of events such as pneumonia for eg hardly effects younger people which is why the average age of death from covid is 82”

My argument stands, pneumonia killed them at an age where it would have done regardless of covid or not. Even if you believe it was covid, it's irrelevant in the thread topic which amounts do " does a human being have a right to refuse medical treatment/ vaccination" without the what amounts to hysteria on here being directed to them.

If the argument is " well they can refuse but deny them basic rights " presumably everyone on here doesnt eat junk food, smoke, drink etc to protect the fabled nhs?

And OP I am refusing the vaccine for similar reasons. Mine are that I'd be happy to have one vaccine if it was going to make a difference and that would be it - done.

But to have to have repeated boosters for goodness knows how long. I do care about what I put into my body - and I'm not going to do that, when (for similar reasons to you) I don't think it's actually going to be for the greater good. I don't think it will work.

My argument stands, pneumonia killed them at an age where it would have done regardless of covid or not

I don’t think you quite understand? Pneumonia isn’t a separate disease to covid. Pneumonia is a lung condition caused by a number of viruses and bacteria, including covid. These people died of viral pneumonia caused by covid. Covid inflamed and clogged up their lungs, we describe that condition as ‘pneumonia’, and that killed them.

[quote catndogslife]OP get vaccinated and then give a donation to a scheme that is helping vaccinate people abroad.
Look up Unicef Vaccinaid www.vaccinaid.org/[/quote]
This makes just so much more sense.

If the argument is " well they can refuse but deny them basic rights " presumably everyone on here doesnt eat junk food, smoke, drink etc to protect the fabled nhs

And there I was thinking you were above this line of arguing

Herd immunity FFS

For those who are not going to get the vaccine and also think lockdown’s are unnecessary what is the alternative in your opinion?

Or are you of the thinking that you will just take the risk and if you get covid then you will either have limited symptoms or if it’s severe you are confident there will be a hospital bed waiting for you?

And yes of course people have a right to refuse offer of vaccination. But you can’t expect the rest of society not to have opinions about that.

If the argument is " well they can refuse but deny them basic rights " presumably everyone on here doesnt eat junk food, smoke, drink etc to protect the fabled nhs

An alcoholic doesn't drink out of stupidity. People refuse the vaccine out of stupidity though.

I don't really know how the world will get out of this stalemate at the moment without vaccination programs of some kind. Long term lockdowns are not sustainable.

On a personal level I know three people with long Covid from having had the virus. They have had a year of up and down illness, and it has been pretty debilitating for them.

I was pretty poorly at home with the illness. It lasted for a month or so. I was more likely to get a blood clot from that than the vaccine. And as a general rule I am a healthy person, I exercise regularly etc.

I don't really understand how taking that risk of getting long covid is preferable to the vaccination.

Both carry risks

presumably everyone on here doesnt eat junk food, smoke, drink etc to protect the fabled nhs

None of those have the potential to collapse the nhs and deny me needed treatment

@TheKeatingFive

now it is vulnerable people who can't be vaccinated being trotted out.

It’s both. HTH.

Does every sentient human being have a right to make a decision on whether to take an injection which has a small chance of damaging their health/life for a disease that poses little threat to them.

It’s a good question. However if your ‘rights’ conflict with mine to have a functioning health service and to live my life unfettered by lockdowns, we’ve got some problems brewing.

You don't have a human right to a functioning health service, ( not that we have had one for 20 years anyway). The human right to determine what you put in your own body ranks higher than every other point made in the thread.. what do you say to the tiny number who die as a consequence of complications from the vaccine to their families? That they have been sacrificed for the greater good?

I get the whole covid risk being greater than vaccine risk for the majority but ultimately it's the decision of each individual and people wishing to throw that basic right of being a human away is quite terrifying... would you advocate enforced blood donation to save lives for eg and if not why not?

@JesusIsAnyNameFree

If the argument is " well they can refuse but deny them basic rights " presumably everyone on here doesnt eat junk food, smoke, drink etc to protect the fabled nhs

An alcoholic doesn't drink out of stupidity. People refuse the vaccine out of stupidity though.

What a silly post

You don't have a human right to a functioning health service, ( not that we have had one for 20 years anyway).

You’ll find that people who’s taxes fund it think they do.

@Womencanlift

For those who are not going to get the vaccine and also think lockdown’s are unnecessary what is the alternative in your opinion?

Or are you of the thinking that you will just take the risk and if you get covid then you will either have limited symptoms or if it’s severe you are confident there will be a hospital bed waiting for you?

The alternative is accepting life is finite and realising we take risks crossing a road every day instead of hiding away in fear.. no one has answered as to why if the NHS is so magnificent are waiting times in other developed countries pre covid ( and now) much lower for most life threatening conditions?

no one has answered as to why if the NHS is so magnificent are waiting times in other developed countries pre covid ( and now) much lower for most life threatening conditions?

I don’t think anyone suggested the NHS as it’s run currently is perfect. But it’s a hell of a lot better than what would happen if it got completely overwhelmed by covid.

@Alonim

OP - you are making a good point. And scientists have also said much the same.

Isn't WHO saying that vaccinations should be given to poorer countries rather than to our children for just this same reason?

What point? Most of us are having difficulty understanding what the OP's point is.

Do you think OP declining to be vaccinated is going to change the government's strategy and her vaccine is going to be sent to the developing world?

@GoldenOmber

And yes of course people have a right to refuse offer of vaccination. But you can’t expect the rest of society not to have opinions about that.

The rest of society? The same society that changes its guidance on age barriers for the AZ vaccine weekly, that leaves thousands of people in abject poverty with cuts across all manner of things, that has escalating knife crime, disgusting anti semitism across the board, that forces kids into masks closing schools rendering people homeless for a virus that has an average age of mortality of 82? I can live with what society thinks thanks

@TheKeatingFive

You don't have a human right to a functioning health service, ( not that we have had one for 20 years anyway).

You’ll find that people who’s taxes fund it think they do.

Are you suggesting that peoples right to a " functioning health service " outweighs the right over what you put in your own body? I think you are confusing human rights with a right in society based on law and taxation purely dependent on what country you live in

that leaves thousands of people in abject poverty with cuts across all manner of things, that has escalating knife crime, disgusting anti semitism across the board

Okay, and in what way does ‘some people on Mumsnet disapprove of my decision not to get vaccinated’ relate to poverty and knife crime and antisemetism?

Nobody’s making you get vaccinated, the government is staggeringly unlikely to bring in compulsory vaccination as policy. So you’re fine?

@katylees

Oh, how's that then?

And you never answered the big question, unless I missed it.
We can't treat both covid patients and cancer patients very easily during big spikes. So what do we actually do?
You don't think we can leave cancer patients at home to die, which of course is true. That's horrible. But what do we do when hospitals are overwhelmed with covid patients and it isn't safe for someone with cancer? Do we deny covid patients treatment in favour of cancer patients?

In terms of "long covid", fatigue is a part of that so anyone tired after 2019 would no doubt have been put into the long covid bracket which seems to be a huge umbrella term for many things. My friend is obese and has had long covid since 2002 she claims( no other health issues).. how many of these cases of long covid are actually long covid. If someone has flu it can take months sometimes to fully recover

@SEmyarse

Goodness know why I'm doing this since I'm most averse to being flamed and I'm going to get grilled alive.

My reason being that I don't think that it will work. I don't mean the vaccine itself, I have no specialist knowledge. I mean the whole strategy of vaccinating everyone.

So we're told that the vaccine is good for personal protection. Got it - no-one wants to die of this nasty disease.
And then we're told that its good to protect those around us. Absolutely got it - even if there's a possibility of nasty side effects, I'm not important in the grand scheme, it's a risk assessment for everyone's benefit.

So of course I'd get the vaccine if those were the only considerations.
But surely that only works if we're isolated from the rest of the world. I know there's been lots of talk of helping poorer countries with their vaccine programmes, but really? We're expecting countries who struggle with persistent poverty, illness, war to prioritise this? It's just not going to happen is it? I just can't see it. And it really feels like we're just doing it to stop them giving it back to us.

And even within our own country, and even with our apparently very successful roll-out, I can't see this being sustainable. We already know that it's going to have to be repeated very frequently. Volunteers won't do it forever, halls etc can't be commandeered forever can they? The numbers are way bigger than the flu scheme.

So then we're back to risk assessment. I'm still not massively bothered by the possibility of side effects, but it does seem unwise to take it if I genuinely don't believe it will work or make things better.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that I'm concerned it's going to make things worse. If there was any way of having the young catch it in fairly quick succession, so from a super spreader, surely that would be safer. It would be transmitted in a smaller number of moves, thus less likely to mutate. As it is though we are forcing it though narrower channels of transmission (by social distancing etc), from person, to person, to person etc, giving it much more chance to change. Of course there is no way of doing this safely though. And then we have absolutely no influence when it lands abroad in much larger populations who often have no choice but to carry on, and there we are with another variant, with quite a possibility it will change enough to be a problem.

I honestly believe that the only sensible use of vaccines is for the most vulnerable, to do our best in an out of control situation.

I totally agree. Those who are vulnerable and those who want the jab should get it. However I have no idea why they are thinking of giving it to those under 50 who are healthy. I feel like people do no understand the IFR of the virus which is incredibly low unless you are vulnerable and have multiple comorbidites. The vaccines appear to not stop transmission as much as we were told judging by those infected Singapore workers 19 put of 28 were fully vaccinated so the reason of getting the jab to reduce transmission does not work anymore. Why should I have to get a experimental jab where the long term effects are unkown? Why are they discounting natural immunty? Pfizer did not release results from the animal trials which is concerning considering in past attempts of SARS and coronavirus vaccines the animals died from ADE. The fact they tested these only on 1000 kids and think that is an ample amount to try out on the population makes me compeltely sick especially considering they are not at risk from covid so no way I would give my child a experimental and only emergency approved vaccine and cannot believe so many would