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To refuse the vaccine for this reason

596 replies

SEmyarse · 18/05/2021 19:09

Goodness know why I'm doing this since I'm most averse to being flamed and I'm going to get grilled alive.

My reason being that I don't think that it will work. I don't mean the vaccine itself, I have no specialist knowledge. I mean the whole strategy of vaccinating everyone.

So we're told that the vaccine is good for personal protection. Got it - no-one wants to die of this nasty disease.
And then we're told that its good to protect those around us. Absolutely got it - even if there's a possibility of nasty side effects, I'm not important in the grand scheme, it's a risk assessment for everyone's benefit.

So of course I'd get the vaccine if those were the only considerations.
But surely that only works if we're isolated from the rest of the world. I know there's been lots of talk of helping poorer countries with their vaccine programmes, but really? We're expecting countries who struggle with persistent poverty, illness, war to prioritise this? It's just not going to happen is it? I just can't see it. And it really feels like we're just doing it to stop them giving it back to us.

And even within our own country, and even with our apparently very successful roll-out, I can't see this being sustainable. We already know that it's going to have to be repeated very frequently. Volunteers won't do it forever, halls etc can't be commandeered forever can they? The numbers are way bigger than the flu scheme.

So then we're back to risk assessment. I'm still not massively bothered by the possibility of side effects, but it does seem unwise to take it if I genuinely don't believe it will work or make things better.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that I'm concerned it's going to make things worse. If there was any way of having the young catch it in fairly quick succession, so from a super spreader, surely that would be safer. It would be transmitted in a smaller number of moves, thus less likely to mutate. As it is though we are forcing it though narrower channels of transmission (by social distancing etc), from person, to person, to person etc, giving it much more chance to change. Of course there is no way of doing this safely though. And then we have absolutely no influence when it lands abroad in much larger populations who often have no choice but to carry on, and there we are with another variant, with quite a possibility it will change enough to be a problem.

I honestly believe that the only sensible use of vaccines is for the most vulnerable, to do our best in an out of control situation.

OP posts:
katylees · 19/05/2021 11:54

I don't agree with everything the OP says but the " don't be selfish have the vaccine " line is in itself an incredibly selfish statement from people either terrified of covid themselves or their family expecting people to subject their bodies to treatment they don't want to preserve either them or relatives. I believe in personal responsibility for health not the mantra of " we are all in it together" as we all have different circumstances. The vast majority on this thread haven't had the flu jab which kill thousands per year, the vast majority on this thread don't donate blood each year, the vast majority on this thread don't donate to overseas charities like red cross etc which saves childrens lives yet have the audacity to preach about people being selfish for not surrendering body autonomy to the state.

The risks from the vaccine may be incredibly low, but they are still there and it's not up to any human being to tell another to play the game of Russian roulette to function in any civilised society- it crosses a very dangerous line which is incredibly "selfish" in itself. If you are concerned about covid, get the jab and allow those to make their own decisions which for the vast majority is nowhere near " deadly". 450 drop dead of cancer each day of all age groups, life is finite which seems to escape many people

SadieCow · 19/05/2021 11:56

@katylees I'm not sure you understand why the OP is against this particular vaccine?

I agree that a lot of people have an IQ of less than 100 though, it's very evident on this thread.

As for the frothing of people that are pro vaccine, I'd say on a scale of 0-10 your anti vaccine post is a 10 in frothing.

katylees · 19/05/2021 12:00

[quote SadieCow]@katylees I'm not sure you understand why the OP is against this particular vaccine?

I agree that a lot of people have an IQ of less than 100 though, it's very evident on this thread.

As for the frothing of people that are pro vaccine, I'd say on a scale of 0-10 your anti vaccine post is a 10 in frothing. [/quote]
This perfectly illustrates why any debate is closed down, the " anti vax " rhetoric again normally from people well below the 100 threshold

mainsfed · 19/05/2021 12:01

@SadieCow that was very unfair to Katy, there was no frothing in her post!

Lollee · 19/05/2021 12:02

Your arguments might sound good to you but what does it cost you to have the jab? Nothing. No pain, no cost, a big fat zilch. So why refuse to have it, you make no sense at all as you can't even state it's for religious reasons. You are lucky to live in a country that has such a good vaccine roll out, would you prefer to be living in India right now?

TheKeatingFive · 19/05/2021 12:03

If you are concerned about covid, get the jab and allow those to make their own decisions which for the vast majority is nowhere near " deadly".

Will do.

However the issue is, if too many refuse, overwhelming the head service remains a possibility, and the threat of lockdowns continue to hang over everyone’s head.

What’s to be done about that?

SadieCow · 19/05/2021 12:04

To summarise we have a virus so deadly that the vast majority don't even know they have it needing to be tested in order to ascertain if they have it with an average age of death above natural life expectancy. Young people are effectively being told/bullied into having a vaccine that has a small chance of causing serious harm giving up body autonomy despite these same bullies stating " It shouldn't be mandatory". When any post that doesn't carry on the insane propaganda of take the vaccine or you're the anti christ it gets deleted meaning any debate/conversation is stopped so what is the point of a forum? Disgusting stuff reminiscent of george Orwells 1984 rather than a free society but no surprise

I'd say that's frothy!

Cornettoninja · 19/05/2021 12:05

[quote mainsfed]@SadieCow that was very unfair to Katy, there was no frothing in her post![/quote]
It wasn’t exactly calm and measured was it? With a slightly odd addition of tangential rant targeted at theists..

Lexilooo · 19/05/2021 12:11

@SEmyarse

I'm not anti-vax. I just can't see how this can possibly work on a worldwide level.
We vaccinate against lots of things that are still circulating elsewhere. Are you against TB vaccination too?

That's still circulating in Asia.

katylees · 19/05/2021 12:12

@Lollee

Your arguments might sound good to you but what does it cost you to have the jab? Nothing. No pain, no cost, a big fat zilch. So why refuse to have it, you make no sense at all as you can't even state it's for religious reasons. You are lucky to live in a country that has such a good vaccine roll out, would you prefer to be living in India right now?
It costs me nothing financially, apart from the risk of a life threatening blood clot or feeling ill weeks after having it as many report.. do you not read the side effects thread on all manner of issues? The risk of complications is tiny, maybe lower than covid although age demographics change the risk/reward balance between jab/covid but who are you to be telling anyone to take those risks?

As for living in India, the death rate per capita is lower than the Uk last time I checked from covid so comparing us to what is effectively a third world country composed of huge slums where people sleep in streets with thousands starving to death is disingenuous and irrelevant.

katylees · 19/05/2021 12:14

@TheKeatingFive

If you are concerned about covid, get the jab and allow those to make their own decisions which for the vast majority is nowhere near " deadly".

Will do.

However the issue is, if too many refuse, overwhelming the head service remains a possibility, and the threat of lockdowns continue to hang over everyone’s head.

What’s to be done about that?

The NHS is overwhelmed most years

Taken from just before covid

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-hospitals-boris-johnson-winter-crisis-emergency-beds-a9242961.html

SlipperyDippery · 19/05/2021 12:17

@TheKeatingFive

If you are concerned about covid, get the jab and allow those to make their own decisions which for the vast majority is nowhere near " deadly".

Will do.

However the issue is, if too many refuse, overwhelming the head service remains a possibility, and the threat of lockdowns continue to hang over everyone’s head.

What’s to be done about that?

This is exactly the point. If the vaccine didn’t reduce transmission then it would be different, but as it is as a society we need sufficient numbers to be vaccinated to keep infections low enough to avoid lockdown. Your post katy misses the point that it isn’t just about individuals choosing to protect themselves from covid, or indeed others. It’s about protecting all of us from another lockdown.

Incidentally I am low risk but pay to have the flu jab, do donate blood, and have monthly standing orders to various overseas charities. I’m not sure what that has to do with anything but as Katy mentioned it...

Cornettoninja · 19/05/2021 12:17

So deaths in India don’t matter because they’re all living in slums and it doesn’t matter if the NHS finally collapses because it’s been creaking for years? Hmm

SlipperyDippery · 19/05/2021 12:18

The NHS is overwhelmed most winters but being overwhelmed isn’t binary. It has not been overwhelmed like it was this winter. Most winters the NHS does not slash oncology operating lists to make beds for flu patients, and redeploy half the department to the makeshift ICUs, which has happened in my husband’s hospital trust this year.

katylees · 19/05/2021 12:20

Health treatment should never be taken in order to avoid or encourage government policies, it should be taken by each individual mitigating the risk of taking it vs not taking it based on health and nothing else . Politicising an invasive medical treatment which for a small minority can cause huge complications is wrong on every level

TheKeatingFive · 19/05/2021 12:21

The NHS is overwhelmed most years

True. But never looked like it’s in danger of collapse as it has because of Covid.

So it’s not just about ‘you do you’

People refusing the vax in sufficient numbers mean that the rest of us have to choose between either rolling lockdowns or having no reliable access to healthcare.

I’m sure you can see that this is a problem.

katylees · 19/05/2021 12:23

@Cornettoninja

So deaths in India don’t matter because they’re all living in slums and it doesn’t matter if the NHS finally collapses because it’s been creaking for years? Hmm
Don't argue a strawman debate saying " deaths in India " don't matter. People living in India have higher rates of death from all illnesses due to extreme poverty in the vast majority of their country so comparing it to uk implying that awaits us here is ridiculous. Huge proportions of Indian society ( over 50 %) hasn't got access to safe drinking water yet posters are implying it can be compared to the uk
SlipperyDippery · 19/05/2021 12:23

@katylees

Health treatment should never be taken in order to avoid or encourage government policies, it should be taken by each individual mitigating the risk of taking it vs not taking it based on health and nothing else . Politicising an invasive medical treatment which for a small minority can cause huge complications is wrong on every level
This is just so naive.

Yes in an ideal worlds you’re right, but once we bring reality into the equation, as keatingfive says, the result of it is that as a society we will either have no functioning health service or have our most basic freedoms removed from us again because some people won’t get an injection with a minuscule complication rate.

katylees · 19/05/2021 12:25

@TheKeatingFive

The NHS is overwhelmed most years

True. But never looked like it’s in danger of collapse as it has because of Covid.

So it’s not just about ‘you do you’

People refusing the vax in sufficient numbers mean that the rest of us have to choose between either rolling lockdowns or having no reliable access to healthcare.

I’m sure you can see that this is a problem.

"But never looked like it’s in danger of collapse as it has because of Covid."

What would you call patients being treated in corridors drinking water from vases then in 2019?

Cornettoninja · 19/05/2021 12:27

I’m just paraphrasing you and trying to follow your tangents. You’ve obviously got a lot to say.

TheKeatingFive · 19/05/2021 12:27

What would you call patients being treated in corridors drinking water from vases then in 2019?

Quit dodging the point and actually engage.

The impact of Covid on an already crumbling health service has the potential to be catastrophic. Or do you disagree?

SlipperyDippery · 19/05/2021 12:28

What would you call patients being treated in corridors drinking water from vases then in 2019?

Did the NHS cancel elective procedures to anything like the same extent in 2019 to make way for flu patients?

How many patients were admitted to the NHS with flu in 2019 vs covid during the peaks?

The flu death tolls are a tragedy, and I accept we are going to have to see covid death tolls as part of life going forwards. But well over 100,000 people have died from covid. The NHS may well struggle every year but surely you can see this is a massive escalation?

TheKeatingFive · 19/05/2021 12:30

Or are you going to argue katy that the pressures facing the nhs in 2019 and 2020 were roughly the same?

pointythings · 19/05/2021 12:31

The NHS is overwhelmed most winters but being overwhelmed isn’t binary. It has not been overwhelmed like it was this winter. Most winters the NHS does not slash oncology operating lists to make beds for flu patients, and redeploy half the department to the makeshift ICUs, which has happened in my husband’s hospital trust this year.

Absolutely this. In my previous job I supported redeployments in both COVID waves, watched community services for vulnerable people slashed because they couldn't be safely delivered and because we needed staff elsewhere. This wasn't 'just' normal winter pressure and anyone who says it was no different is frankly an idiot.

katylees · 19/05/2021 12:34

@TheKeatingFive

What would you call patients being treated in corridors drinking water from vases then in 2019?

Quit dodging the point and actually engage.

The impact of Covid on an already crumbling health service has the potential to be catastrophic. Or do you disagree?

I think you have answered your own question by stating " an already crumbling health service". If you think the answer is to delay operations / treatment where an estimated number of tens of thousands of lives have been lost due to non covid related matters with apparent life saving lockdowns good for you- I don't. What it boils down to is do the ends justify the means.. bullying people into having vaccines they don't want to protect an " already crumbling health service " and for "government policies " to avoid what to me are senseless lockdowns is wrong