Choosing not to get vaccine

[InnerDiscomfort]

Not looking to start a fight, but interested if you have made the decision not to get the vaccine and have no condition that you know of that would stop you, why not?

Family members abroad have decided not to get the vaccine (Pfizer I think). Vague concerns about it not being safe and/ or tested enough. They both work outside the home and have families. Fairly fit and healthy so unlikely to be seriously affected by COVID, under 50 years of age.

It's not something I agree with but up to them I guess. I'm also unlikely to get ill but had my first vaccine mainly to help stop the spread (and I'd like to go abroad!)

So if you haven't had it, I'm interested in your reasoning if you would care to share.

@duffeldaisy

Someone wrote earlier that they weren’t going to tell anyone that they’d refused the vaccine. Please do! If you want to avoid judgment just hint at some medical reason, but don’t not tell people. If you pass it to them, their body takes a day to fight it off and they then go to visit a friend with cancer or autoimmune disease then you could be responsible for serious illness or death.

So people who don't have the jab have to lie about why, and have to declare it at all? Medical records are confidential. Or do you suggest people be emblazoned with some sort of indicator to make clear to all their unvaccinated status?

@duffeldaisy

Someone wrote earlier that they weren’t going to tell anyone that they’d refused the vaccine. Please do! If you want to avoid judgment just hint at some medical reason, but don’t not tell people. If you pass it to them, their body takes a day to fight it off and they then go to visit a friend with cancer or autoimmune disease then you could be responsible for serious illness or death.

They could also encounter someone in a supermarket who goes on to pass Covid to them, with the same outcome. How about people keep their judgemental comments to themselves? A friend asked me about it, I told him why I was not having it... I got called some terrible things and now we don't speak. I don't bring it up at all with other people... it is my business, not theirs. It is not up for discussion.

@PetraRabbit

If it's "selfish" not to have the vaccination, the implication is that we are all meanies who are unwilling to accept the negative side. By banding the "selfish" word around, the vaccine pushers are acknowledging there's a major negative side. If the vaccine was all round fantastic then there would be nothing to be selfish about. "Oh you selfish person turning down that lottery win...I can't believe how selfish she was saying she didn't want that last chocolate biscuit......"

The point I didn't make earlier but a couple of others have is a really important one that's rarely aired : surely it is more selfless for a 32 year old in good health in a developed country to turn down "their" vaccine and hope it could go to a vulnerable person in Brazil? Why do governments not want to do this? Also someone above told me I was wrong that all clinically vulnerable are now vaccinated. If that's true why is the government pushing the vaccine on me before people who want and need it?
This has been a great thread for me, giving me hope that there are others out there questioning the very narrow narrative.

The first paragraph of your post is spot on. Infact, even if someone perceived a risk to their health from the vaccine, selfish is still a stupid criticism. Being 'selfish' with regards to your own health is 100% normal no matter what shaming nonsense people bleat on about - after all, who else but you is going to bear the consequences if something goes wrong?

@Donitta

My kids wouldn't live a normal life without their mother though. Just because you're willing to take that risk doesn't mean everyone else has to. The vast majority have done though. Because we’re adults and we know that we have to fix this situation otherwise our lives and our children’s lives are fucked. What’s the alternative? Sit at home for god knows how many years, alone and unable to go out, no friends, no schooling for your children, no life for anyone. I don’t want my child to grow up like that. He deserves me to take responsibility and get vaccinated so he can have a life. Anyone who won’t do that for their child is selfish.

Once most of the vulnerable people are vaccinated we can pretty much live normally, no? I can’t see this scenario coming to pass

London, if you’re a risk to others then yes, that would be the unselfish, thoughtful thing to do.
No-one’s forcing you to. But a bit like when we’ve been due to see grandparents, I always mention if we have stinking colds, so they are aware and can choose to avoid us if they’d rather. With this it’s even more serious, so yes, morally, you should.

It annoys me that people aren’t talking about this more... the impact on the state of health of the population with regards to Covid. Everyone is so afraid of causing offence but if we don’t sort the state of our health out now, we will be in this position again when the next pandemic kicks off.

Couldn't agree more.
researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN03336/SN03336.pdf

It's not possible to discuss this in a calm measured way on MN without being drowned out by loud accusations of "fat shaming".

I see your point daisy but if you want that to happen then there needs to be no judgement on people who are not vaccinated. Judging by his thread there's long way to go. No one is going to subject themselves to that abuse IRL.

@duffeldaisy

London, if you’re a risk to others then yes, that would be the unselfish, thoughtful thing to do. No-one’s forcing you to. But a bit like when we’ve been due to see grandparents, I always mention if we have stinking colds, so they are aware and can choose to avoid us if they’d rather. With this it’s even more serious, so yes, morally, you should.

Do you think the same about people who don't have the flu jab?

@RaraRachael

I know of 2 people who aren't getting the vaccine. One is a young woman who is TTC and unsure of the effects it may have on an unborn child. The other is a woman from church who says that the Lord will look after her.

The first I understand, the second is batshit!

@Donitta

I see not many people have responded to the poster several pages back who told of how her young and healthy friend left behind two small children after losing her life from a vaccine related blood clot. I'm fairly certain that same woman wouldn't have died leaving behind her poor children if she'd had the virus itself. One million mothers get vaccinated. One of them tragically dies. But that means the rest get to live in a normal world without constant lockdowns. And more importantly, all of their kids get to live in that world too.

Yes, when you get vaccinated you’re rolling the dice. But the alternative is for you and your kids and everyone else to live in this miserable world of constant Covid and lockdowns forever. I’ll be honest - I would happily take a risk and even sacrifice my life so my kids could live a normal life.

That really is not the alternative to everyone being vaccinated. Natural infection, which is usually mild in the vast majority of people, also provides immunity.

"Do you think the same about people who don't have the flu jab?"

Flu and Covid are completely different. For one thing, you can carry Covid and spread it asymptomatically, whereas with the flu you're contagious when you're symptomatic.
Covid is more contagious than flu.
More people have died from Covid than flu.

"Researchers analyzed U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs data on more than 3,600 patients hospitalized with COVID-19 between Feb. 1 and June 17 of this year, and more than 12,600 hospitalized with the flu between Jan. 1, 2017 and Dec. 31, 2019. The average age of patients in both groups was 69.

The death rate among COVID-19 patients was 18.5%, while it was 5.3% for those with the flu. Those with COVID were nearly five times more likely to die than flu patients, according to the study published online Dec. 15 in the BMJ."

"The study also found that COVID-19 patients were four times more likely to require breathing machines, nearly 2.5 times more likely to be admitted to intensive care, and stayed in the hospital an average of three days longer than flu patients".

Plus there's the whole global pandemic thing going on. It's really a question of morals.

(By it being a question of morals, I mean morals in letting others make informed decisions based on their own health/family's health in where or how they interact with someone who could spread it).

Yes, it would take non-judgment. But you can hardly blame someone who is afraid of a vulnerable friend/family member getting chronic illness or dying for 'judging' if someone doesn't tell them that they haven't taken any precautions.

@duffeldaisy flu can also be passed on from asymptomatic people

academic.oup.com/cid/article/64/6/736/2733100

And if someone has been vaccinated then why should they worry about someone else’s vaccine status? Unless of course they aren’t immune after the vaccine in which case they’re also putting others at risk. (Potentially more if they’re carrying on as if they’re immune because of their vaccine and taking fewer precautions)

I didn't know that Bumblemummy - in that case, probably best to mention flu vaccines too to anyone who might be vulnerable.

Vaccines don't work 100% for everyone, so the medical advice is still to be careful at the moment.

Lucidas, fair enough but the tone is often suggesting having the vaccine is a type of sacrifice for others. I've even seen the word sacrifice used, along with "heavy lifting". I think possibly it's part of the virtue signalling aspect- the idea you suffered for the good of others and can put it on Facebook with a photo of your "jab" and a list of the side effects you're "so immensely grateful for. Yay science!"

Yes, I know that they’re not 100% effective but people do seem to be relaxing more once they’ve been vaccinated and take fewer precautions. They could also be putting others at risk.

And people don’t usually disclose whether they’ve had the flu vaccine to other people. It’s typically offered to the most vulnerable groups, many of whom don’t actually take it. I think it will end up being the case for the coronavirus vaccines too -once the dust settles a bit and people calm down.

@duffeldaisy previous post

@Donitta

You are 100% right!
Others are being selfish

By the way, I'm not suggesting everyone who has the vaccine is a virtue signaller. That's far from the case. I didn't want it come across that way. Simply that there is a large group of the vaccinated who believe they are more virtuous and will not tolerate anyone who has done reasonable research, looked at the evidence around them in their own lives and come to a different conclusion. They have to be stupid, crazy or nasty.

@duffeldaisy

"Do you think the same about people who don't have the flu jab?"

Flu and Covid are completely different. For one thing, you can carry Covid and spread it asymptomatically, whereas with the flu you're contagious when you're symptomatic.
Covid is more contagious than flu.
More people have died from Covid than flu.

"Researchers analyzed U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs data on more than 3,600 patients hospitalized with COVID-19 between Feb. 1 and June 17 of this year, and more than 12,600 hospitalized with the flu between Jan. 1, 2017 and Dec. 31, 2019. The average age of patients in both groups was 69.

The death rate among COVID-19 patients was 18.5%, while it was 5.3% for those with the flu. Those with COVID were nearly five times more likely to die than flu patients, according to the study published online Dec. 15 in the BMJ."

"The study also found that COVID-19 patients were four times more likely to require breathing machines, nearly 2.5 times more likely to be admitted to intensive care, and stayed in the hospital an average of three days longer than flu patients".

Plus there's the whole global pandemic thing going on. It's really a question of morals.

Flu is still contagious and can also be really serious for people with compromised immune systems. But I see. It's only the covid-unvaccinated who have to declare their confidential medical records to all and sundry. Ok.

@duffeldaisy

I didn't know that Bumblemummy - in that case, probably best to mention flu vaccines too to anyone who might be vulnerable.

Vaccines don't work 100% for everyone, so the medical advice is still to be careful at the moment.

How would this work in practice? Someone with a compromised immune system could walk past an unjabbed (flu or covid) person in a supermarket or at the post office. How would the requisite information be communicated in that set of circumstances?

It's not spread as much in that way. I'm talking about going to a friend's house later in the year, or back to the office, in an enclosed space.
Of course there will be places where it's just not possible - but wouldn't you want to tell friends/family to keep them healthy?

Beyond all that, it is the unvaccinated who will be mainly continuing any strains and any new variants. Do what you want personally, but you do have to be aware that you're choosing to be a part of that.

And if you want to be careful about passing it on, but don't want the vaccine, then continuing to wear a mask to the supermarket or crowded places would be a better alternative than nothing. That's been normal in many Asian countries for years and years. I can see it taking off here in future, if people have a cold but need to pop out for something.

Researchers analyzed U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs data on more than 3,600 patients hospitalized with COVID-19 between Feb. 1 and June 17 of this year, and more than 12,600 hospitalized with the flu between Jan. 1, 2017 and Dec. 31, 2019. The average age of patients in both groups was 69.

The death rate among COVID-19 patients was 18.5%, while it was 5.3% for those with the flu. Those with COVID were nearly five times more likely to die than flu patients, according to the study published online Dec. 15 in the BMJ."

Did you just copy and paste or do you have the ability to critically analyse this data? Did it perhaps occur to you that the death rate for covid was higher because it was a novel virus not yet established in the population and medical practitioners knew nothing about it or how to treat it? You know, unlike flu.
Also let's not forget the overwhelming majority of those who caught covid in the first wave were already ill in hospital or care homes. No point posting figures when you don't know how to decipher them.