Choosing not to get vaccine

[InnerDiscomfort]

Not looking to start a fight, but interested if you have made the decision not to get the vaccine and have no condition that you know of that would stop you, why not?

Family members abroad have decided not to get the vaccine (Pfizer I think). Vague concerns about it not being safe and/ or tested enough. They both work outside the home and have families. Fairly fit and healthy so unlikely to be seriously affected by COVID, under 50 years of age.

It's not something I agree with but up to them I guess. I'm also unlikely to get ill but had my first vaccine mainly to help stop the spread (and I'd like to go abroad!)

So if you haven't had it, I'm interested in your reasoning if you would care to share.

@HelpMeRhondaYeah yes it’s not helpful when side effects are not reported or acknowledged properly. A good example is the mirena coil which many many women find affects their moods/ skin/ all sorts of side effects that ‘can’t be caused by the coil’ because the progesterone stays in the uterus. This is clearly not the case for everyone.

[quote FourOnTheHill]@babbaloushka thanks for your posts. As you clearly understand these things can you elaborate on the difference between immunity from vaccine vs naturally acquired immunity?

I would like to know:

1. Is one considered better or longer lasting than the other.

1. Are there many confirmed cases of reinfection where the second infection is more serious/ dangerous than the first?

1. What is the latest information available on how long the vaccine immunity is likely to last?[/quote]

No problem, will do my best, am sure @HelpMeRhondaYeah can pick up if I can't answer.

1. This is a difficult question, because it really does just take time to know for sure. There have been several cases of reinfection with COVID that indicates fallibility in the natural response- it is a Russian roulette as to how good your primary immune response will be, how many antibodies, and more crucially how many T-cell epitopes will be produced in response. Unfortunately, because of the cost and time it takes to test people for their TC immunity, we don't have a very accurate picture on how robust immunity is, on average, after infection. It is widely accepted that the milder the presentation of disease, the weaker the stored immunity will be, so the less protection there is against severe disease from reinfection.

Given that reinfection does occur, and any individual has no feasible way of determining how good their immunity is, and on top of that the relative risk of COVID causing death or long term illness, it's reasonable to assume that the vaccine is a more risk-adverse choice. This is also due to the increased amount of data we have about immunity after vaccine, which indicates around 91% protection 6 months after second dose- this is good news!

The fact that an estimated 500 people have been reinfected, some as little as 4 months after having covid(reportedly), indicates that so far, the vaccine offers longer lasting immunity. But it's not guaranteed, and I think that the potential for boosters are being pursued (better safe than sorry), although we have seen in other studies of different viruses that artificial immunity offers greater protection than natural.

1. I think the majority have been milder than the first, due to there being a quicker immune response, but two people are thought to have died after reinfection, so it's definitely not an absolute, and getting it does not mean you are protected from a severe instance of disease.

1. Similar to the first answer, the most reliable data available is minimum of 6 months, but there is no reason to believe that it won't last longer. The prep for boosters etc is very typical for companies like mine, we spin plates, so as always to have something ready just in case.

The most reassuring thing about vaccine immunity is that you are near guaranteed proper protection, whereas chancing immunity from natural infection is subject to much greater variability and risks reinfection, ongoing disease and potentially death, because you don't know how good your immune response will be, nor how well it will work next time round, whereas the vaccine trials have proven steady data with consistent high quality protection that massively reduces the incidence of serious disease.

@babbaloushka thank you that’s so kind of you to answer in so much detail. I really appreciate it

@blueangel19

blueangel19
For me it would be better if an effective antiviral is developed so that you take it quickly if you get Covid.

I had to smile here about antivirals being developed when nature is full of them.
Look into herbs.and plants .there’s loads
Oregano..oil of oregano is good for some utis
Garlic
Echinacea
Olive leaf
Astragalus and so on
I’ve just brought a big bag of dandelion from our caravan field which I’m going to tincture

You don’t need a pharmaceutical company to develop antivirals, they already exist. Right outside your front door
Here’s just one source
draxe.com/nutrition/antiviral-herbs/

@babbaloushka

Several studies have now shown that immunity after natural infection persists for over 6 months in the majority of people and that reinfection is rare.

Five studies were identified that reported low rates of SARS-CoV2 reinfection up to seven months following initial infection. Additionally, a scoping review of the long-term duration of immune responses found that while there may be a waning of antibody responses over time, T- and B-cell responses persist for up to eight months post-infection. Source

About 95% of subjects retained immune memory at ~6 months after infection.
Source

One of the most significant findings of the study is that 99% of participants who had tested positive for previous infection retained antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 for 3 months after being infected, and 88% did so for the full 6 months of the study.
Source

Even mild/asymptomatic infection can produce lasting immunity:

In conclusion, despite concerns of waning immunity, appropriate immunoassays can detect antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 at 8 months after infection in most asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic persons.
Source

Immunity can wane faster in the older population source but the same may also be found for vaccine induced immunity, we don't really have that data yet. Boosters may be needed more frequently in these groups.

Vaccine induced immunity to viruses does not always offer greater protection than natural infection. For example, pertussis Source and mumps source.

Yes, the vast majority of reinfections are milder - just as people who are infected after having the vaccine are more likely to have a mild version of the disease(see previous links). However, there have also been people who have died despite having been vaccinated.

@FourOnTheHill I hope you find some of this information helpful too

Yes, the vast majority of reinfections are milder - just as people who are infected after having the vaccine are more likely to have a mild version of the disease(see previous links). However, there have also been people who have died despite having been vaccinated.

My friends father died just after having the vax
Two days later ge got covid
Two days later he died

You don’t need a pharmaceutical company to develop antivirals, they already exist. Right outside your front door

They had to issue warnings in India to not cover yourself in cow dung believing it helps against covid

Apparently the antiviral molnupiravir (currently in phase III trials) is very promising. However eminent virologist Prof. Vincent Racaniello said what we really need is three good antivirals, not just one. Check out this interview (written transcript below) where he discusses natural vs vaccine acquired immunity, and molnupiravir:

www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/marty-makary/92434

articles on molnupiravir:

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0021925821005639
www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.11.443555v1
www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.10.419242v1

It's taken as a pill. Perhaps that's what Boris was referring to when he was talking about possible treatments taken after exposure to the virus.

You don’t need a pharmaceutical company to develop antivirals, they already exist. Right outside your front door

I'm a big proponent of the health benefits of certain botanicals, but unless a supplement has been shown to be effective against covid-19, I wouldn't count on it. Antivirals typically work because they target a specific molecule on the surface of the virus. That molecule may or may not be present on a particular virus.

My friends father died just after having the vax
Two days later he got covid
Two days later he died

The vaccine wouldn't offer full protection after just two days, it takes around two weeks. Your friend's father simply had unfortunate timing.

Mandalay246

My friends father died just after having the vax
Two days later he got covid
Two days later he died”
The vaccine wouldn't offer full protection after just two days, it takes around two weeks. Your friend's father simply had unfortunate timing.“

Sad but true. Unfortunately, I know several (older mostly) people who seemed to feel they were superhuman as soon as they had their first jab and threw caution to the wind.
I don’t understand why, I was very clearly told that it would in fact take 3 full weeks for partial protection to kick in after my first and that when I have my second it will take 2 🤷‍♀️

@DenisetheMenace

Mandalay246

My friends father died just after having the vax
Two days later he got covid
Two days later he died”
The vaccine wouldn't offer full protection after just two days, it takes around two weeks. Your friend's father simply had unfortunate timing.“

Sad but true. Unfortunately, I know several (older mostly) people who seemed to feel they were superhuman as soon as they had their first jab and threw caution to the wind.
I don’t understand why, I was very clearly told that it would in fact take 3 full weeks for partial protection to kick in after my first and that when I have my second it will take 2 🤷‍♀️

This guy didn’t throw caution to the winds He was in hospital Went in covid free after a fall..nothing broken just shook up

Such a huge amount of paranoid nonsense being spouted in these pages. So many conspiracy theorists informed by Facebook. Bring on vaccine passports, at least then society’s recovery can proceed without being threatened by such selfishness.

This guy didn’t throw caution to the winds
He was in hospital
Went in covid free after a fall..nothing broken just shook up“

He was kept in hospital with nothing broken? I’m surprised.

Actually hopefully the next vaccine to be approved used cells produced by moths and stuff from a soapbark tree. No joke.

@DenisetheMenace

This guy didn’t throw caution to the winds He was in hospital Went in covid free after a fall..nothing broken just shook up“

He was kept in hospital with nothing broken? I’m surprised.

Really? Why shouldn’t he be kept in for observation?

Because that’s just not what hospitals do, even in “normal” times. They keep you in for as long as it takes to get test and scan results back then back home you go.

It depends. Sometimes they need to do an assessment to ensure the person being sent home can do so safely. Isn't this what they used to call bed blockers? Because there's nowhere else for them to go.

I know of a GP who has chosen not to get any Covid vaccine. He's honest with his patients when asked if he's been vaccinated and simply says 'no' due to 'personal choice' and that it's for no other reason than that.

It would make you wonder why a medically qualified person would make that choice as surely GP's are supposed to promote vaccinations! I'm nervous as to why he hasn't gone ahead with it tbh... Apparently he's not the only medic either who has made that decision if you're to believe what you read in the UK papers and media!

@CityCommuter

I know of a GP who has chosen not to get any Covid vaccine. He's honest with his patients when asked if he's been vaccinated and simply says 'no' due to 'personal choice' and that it's for no other reason than that.

It would make you wonder why a medically qualified person would make that choice as surely GP's are supposed to promote vaccinations! I'm nervous as to why he hasn't gone ahead with it tbh... Apparently he's not the only medic either who has made that decision if you're to believe what you read in the UK papers and media!

Theres no way a GP has not got vaccinated and tells all his patients about it. It will become mandatory for fronting workers.

There is not a mass of nurses or doctors that have refused it either.

There is evidence that care workers have not been vaccinated yet. Unless medically unable, it's selfish to refuse the vaccine in that line of work.

There are a lot of good care workers. However some care homes are so desperate for staff that they don't employ the best candidates.

I think they will bring it in as being mandatory . Hep B was compulsory. Add on a Covid jab. The care home is the residents home. Their health needs are the priority.

CityCommuter
I know of a GP who has chosen not to get any Covid vaccine. He's honest with his patients when asked if he's been vaccinated and simply says 'no' due to 'personal choice' and that it's for no other reason than that“

I imagine there are a few GPS who are creationists too. Some apparently intelligent people just defy evidence and logic.