Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots 2

[Whichjab]

Just starting another thread as so much information still coming out. Interesting that Germany have just allowed AZ for all that want it.

Note, this is not an Anti-Vaccs thread. It is just a discussion about alternatives.

[quote IndigoC]**@Belladonna12* Given we appear to have sufficient supply to cover every remaining adult with an mRNA vaccine why would we continue to take the risk of using AZ for anyone’s* first dose? Especially say a 40 year old, who may be born within months of the government’s arbitrary and likely inaccurate line in the sand?[/quote]
How do you know we have enough ?Obviously if we have sufficient supply then everyone should get the choice but I doubt that is the case. We only ordered 40 million Pfizer and 7 million Moderna. A lot of that has already been used.

twitter.com/paulmainwood/status/1391324973097234433?s=21

Only 24 million doses are required to vaccinate 18-40 year olds, assuming an 85% take up rate. We should have 17 million Pfizer plus most of the Moderna order left.

Do you think 85% of that age group will take up the vaccine? I think it will be much lower. They are a very low risk group.

We ordered 17 million Moderna doses btw — we added an additional 10 million back in January (which looks like a master stroke now). Supply was initially slow but is increasing now.

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-uk-approves-use-of-modernas-coronavirus-vaccine-12150649

@bumbleymummy

Do you think 85% of that age group will take up the vaccine? I think it will be much lower. They are a very low risk group.

Under 75% of over 40s have been vaccinated to date so you may be right. But AZ hesitancy may play a part in that.

Novavax should become available this year too although sounds like the approval has been pushed back to quarter 3 now. It is not an adenovirus vector vaccine so shouldn't have the same clotting issues AZ and J&J have had; nothing has come up in the trials anyway but I guess that was the same for the others.

@nordica

Novavax should become available this year too although sounds like the approval has been pushed back to quarter 3 now. It is not an adenovirus vector vaccine so shouldn't have the same clotting issues AZ and J&J have had; nothing has come up in the trials anyway but I guess that was the same for the others.

Yeah, it’s a shame Novavax got pushed back. I reckon it’ll be used for boosters pending the results of that vaccine mixing trial. Latest I heard is they are hoping for approval by the MHRA in July.

J&J are expected to be approved soon too but I read the government is not planning to use it in the main rollout but rather intends to target it at hard to reach groups such as the homeless because it’s one shot.

J&J has the same issues as AZ unfortunately. The latest CDC data from yesterday is concerning.

There's currently an age restriction of 50 on it in Ireland but there seems to be a push from government to get that removed. It's a handy vaccine to use as it's one shot, and the convenience of it is distracting from the safety issues.

@Margaritawithlime

My GP finally rang me back and without query or questioning booked me into a Pfizer clinic next week. Hoorah

I just got a text from my GP practice cancelling my 19 May AZ appointment and asking me to rebook into a Pfizer clinic starting 25 May. Relief! (I barely go out of the house anyway at the moment, so I can't see that changing before the 25th!)

My DP thinks from what he's been following on twitter in terms of vaccine movements, that pretty much all AZ is going to be quietly switched to Pfizer/Moderna after the start of the 39 and below bookings (which opened today online).

@irresistibleoverwhelm

My DP thinks from what he's been following on twitter in terms of vaccine movements, that pretty much all AZ is going to be quietly switched to Pfizer/Moderna after the start of the 39 and below bookings (which opened today online).

Yes, I think that some of the mass vaccination centres are likely to switch now that people in their late 30s can book.

Why should anyone regardless of age at this point in the UK take the risk of AZ if they have concerns about it. Everyone should now have a choice.
The MHRA are still not releasing incidence data on clots per age group or gender so we're not able to see if it is increasing as time passes and younger cohorts get vaccinated. To say they have the data and are not releasing it is a fact - not a conspiracy theory.

What are people’s thoughts re the risk with second doses at present or do people still too early to establish the risk for someone in their 30s?

Also does anyone know if it’s possible to get a blood test to see if you have platelet 4 antibodies in order to establish if you’re at risk or is it not that simple?

@Rainbowsandstorms

What are people’s thoughts re the risk with second doses at present or do people still too early to establish the risk for someone in their 30s?

It seems to be quite low still. Only 2 new cases out of 1.6 million second doses added this week.

To say they have the data and are not releasing it is a fact - not a conspiracy theory.

Indeed - but I haven’t seen that statement expressed in such neutral terms on here. Usually it’s “data is being hidden”, “they have sat on the data” or even “we are being lied to”. Not the same thing at all.

@Belladonna12
my comment re 'desperate for any vaccination' was made in response to the many many posters on MN and elsewhere who say things like 'we should be grateful to be getting any vaccination' or 'their 20 something relative is desperate to get a vaccination' etc etc. I've read many posts that people don't care what they get as long as they get vaccinated soon.Also I'm in Scotland and in my area they have only just started vaccinating 45-49 year olds and based on friend's reactions most aren't concerned about AZ

@IndigoC thank you. Where can you find the data re number of second doses given? It’s so hard to draw conclusions from the available data due to the time lag with the reaction that causes the clot then they need reporting too. My concern at the moment is that many of the second doses being given will be to older people, who fortunately seem to be less prone to the clots, though at least now they will be looking for cases so they are more likely to be picked up in the stats relatively quickly. I’m really hoping for some reassuring data soon and keeping everything crossed that the risk for second doses is much lower.

[quote NotSoLongGoodbye]@Belladonna12
my comment re 'desperate for any vaccination' was made in response to the many many posters on MN and elsewhere who say things like 'we should be grateful to be getting any vaccination' or 'their 20 something relative is desperate to get a vaccination' etc etc. I've read many posts that people don't care what they get as long as they get vaccinated soon.Also I'm in Scotland and in my area they have only just started vaccinating 45-49 year olds and based on friend's reactions most aren't concerned about AZ[/quote]
They may have been keen to be vaccinated if they had underlying conditions or if their older relatives were vulnerable but I'm not so sure healthy people in their 20s will be desperate to get vaccinated now. I know a lot of people in their 20s and while many intend to get vaccinated, I don't think they could be described as "desperate". That may change of course if there are vaccine passports or other bribes as in Germany.

[quote Rainbowsandstorms]@IndigoC thank you. Where can you find the data re number of second doses given? It’s so hard to draw conclusions from the available data due to the time lag with the reaction that causes the clot then they need reporting too. My concern at the moment is that many of the second doses being given will be to older people, who fortunately seem to be less prone to the clots, though at least now they will be looking for cases so they are more likely to be picked up in the stats relatively quickly. I’m really hoping for some reassuring data soon and keeping everything crossed that the risk for second doses is much lower.[/quote]
Unfortunately they’re not giving us detailed incidence rates by age group per week (or incidence rates at all). I took a screenshot of last week’s Yellow Card data and they’d given 22.6 million first doses of AZ and 5.9 million second doses. This week it’s up to 23.3 million first doses and 7.5 million second doses.

I agree that’s it’s so hard to interpret the data when we can’t be sure how much lag is involved. You’re right that a lot of those second doses are older people so the odds are probably skewed. But I think something like 25% of under 40s were vaccinated in earlier vulnerable groups so there will be some in there. Second doses definitely look overall significantly lower for clot risk, which makes sense, the second dose of AZ in general seems to elicit less side effects. VITT seems to be an immune overreaction thing.

The risk with the second dose is very likely to be lower than with the first as it is an auto immune reaction.

Article from Daily Mail regarding blood clots.

German doctor has theory on why they happen.
Also, American doctors share drug they effectively used on blood clot sufferer after J&J vaccine.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9575085/Coronavirus-Scientist-claims-preservative-AstraZeneca-vaccine-clot-link.html

One big positive is that there were only 2 deaths in the data this week. That suggests they’re getting better at catching it early.

@Nofriend

My gp has agreed I can have Pfizer as my 2nd dose as I’m overdue and refuse to have AZ. I’m worried about this too as I don’t know if mixing is safe.

Interim data suggests more short term effects, fever, chills etc, but no major concerns