Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots 2

[Whichjab]

Just starting another thread as so much information still coming out. Interesting that Germany have just allowed AZ for all that want it.

Note, this is not an Anti-Vaccs thread. It is just a discussion about alternatives.

@MrsFezziwig
Is that the leaflet they give you after AZ vaccination? Thank you it's good to get at least some general numbers specifically for my age group.
I just think the UK regulatory bodies could be more transparent with all of the data we have available on incidence rates by age. They very paternalistically only give us a little bit of data so as not to scare us from the great vaccination project. More info leads to informed consent. Not enough leads to mistrust.

@MrsFezziwig thank you for the chart, where is from? I’ve not seen anything breaking it down like this.

[quote pingalinga]@MrsFezziwig
Is that the leaflet they give you after AZ vaccination? Thank you it's good to get at least some general numbers specifically for my age group.
I just think the UK regulatory bodies could be more transparent with all of the data we have available on incidence rates by age. They very paternalistically only give us a little bit of data so as not to scare us from the great vaccination project. More info leads to informed consent. Not enough leads to mistrust.[/quote]
The leaflet which is given after vaccination includes some information from the document. I found the document itself quite easily online, which I was quite surprised about as a number of posters on here seem quite convinced that data is being “hidden” from them. I think some people seem to want their own personal risk assessment which at this stage just isn’t feasible when (as far as I am aware) the MHRA don’t yet know whether the risk of clotting is random (with a connection to age) or specific to certain individuals. I’m sure if they could predict this they’d be only too willing to disseminate it as it would make their lives a lot easier.

Incidentally pingalinga the risk of clotting problems in 40-49 year olds is given currently as 1 in 100,000, the same as for the over 50s.

@MrsFezziwig do you have the link? I had a search last night and didn’t manage to find it. Thanks for sharing it’s really helpful to have a better idea of the risk for my age group.

@MrsFezziwig do you know when that information was dated?

If you look at the most recent Winton Centre graphics they have the risk for 40-49 at 1.2 per 100,000 slightly higher than the rate for 50-59. And even higher for women in their 40s. These graphics are only based on the data up to 28 April before many in their 40s had their jabs and before sufficient time had passed to see the onset of adverse effects.

The government are not releasing information about how many in each age group have received AZ. The Winton centre have even said they were given that data to calculate the risks, but aren’t able to share it.

For those of us who have already had AZ what are our options? Would I need to wait a full year and then be vaccinated with a different vaccine instead? I don’t feel confident having my second one now.

@EmpressSuiko - I personally would feel considerably safer having my 2nd jab, having clearly survived the first, than risking not completing the prescribed 2 doses when I know covid rates are inevitably going to go up as society reopens and travel recommences, or seeing if I could be one of the guinea pigs in the current trials testing the mixing and matching of different vaccines.

There will be data available soon on the mixing of first and second doses, it may well be a viable option.

There have been six cases after a second dose so far. Bear in mind that most people haven't had a second dose yet, and those who have will skew older, so those numbers are also likely to change in time.

@MrsFezziwig
I am sceptical if 40-49’s have a 1/100 000 chance, the same as over 50s. The EMA’s much more detailed analysis from 23rd April gives a risk of 1/48 000 for 40-49yr olds and 1/90 000 for 50-59 yr olds 1/100 000 for 60-69 and 1/200 000 for 70-79. So clearly everyone above the age of 40 does not have the same risk.
The MHRA has the data for each age group but are not sharing it with the public. I wrote to them for a freedom of information request for the information but it was declined.

@pingalinga - how many 40-49 year olds are included in the EMA data?

@Walkaround my concern is the people who have had clots after a second jab, and as others have said it will be predominantly an older age group who have had their second who overall have less chance of experiencing clots.
My concerns are how many people within their 30s will experience a blood clot after their second, it’s clear that not everyone who was fine the first time will be fine the second time around.
My family also has a history of DVT so I’m concerned what risk this poses to me.

@EmpressSuiko - DVT is not related to the rare type of blood clot you are concerned about with AZ. The AZ blood clot involves low platelets in the blood and is not remotely a “normal” sort of blood clot. I personally would not be overly worried by the number of cases of the blood clot reported after dose 2, as millions of people have had both doses out of 6 reported cases, despite this now being actively looked for, but risk-benefit analysis is a very personal thing (literally, as it can be affected by your specific circumstances), and this is a new vaccine.

@Walkaround
It doesn't state how many 40-49's were vaccinated just that the risk is 2.1/100 000 which is roughly 1/48 000. The UK has vaccinated more 40 yr olds than the EU so our data would be very helpful to have.

@EmpressSuiko
I have friends in the same situation as you not knowing what to do about the second dose. It's a very difficult position to be in. I think they will probably end up having it but I wish we were given more options like in some EU countries to have alternate vaccines.

On the "6 cases out millions" point, when the clotting issue first came to light we were being told the risk was about one in a million, despite the German and Norwegian data showing a much higher incidence rate. There were silly questions on here about why Germans and Norwegians were so much more susceptible to clots than other nationalities (when the obvious answer was that those two countries were ahead of others in terms of reporting and monitoring). Now the UK data is much more closely aligned to theirs, with incidence rates as high as 1 in 50,000 in some cohorts.

It is sadly inevitable that the incidence rate for second doses will increase as more are administered, particularly as they move down the age groups.

"6 cases out of millions"

Really wish MN had an edit button.

Presumably there will be some data regarding mixing of vaccines soon. Norway stopped AZ completely, and anyone who has had AZ 1st jab and are waiting for second have been told they will have an alternative. My friend, in her 30s but vaccinated due to being a vaccinator, had AZ 1st dose and is booked in for Pfizer 2nd dose next week

For what it's worth, Ireland are offering only one dose to people who have had covid in the six months prior to their vaccination. This is because the original infection has provided a good level of protection, with the vaccine then acting as a booster. The second dose is considered unnecessary.

So, to anyone stressing about getting a second AZ dose, if you've had covid up to 6 months prior to your first dose you will already have a strong level of protection.

Should also note that advice is for people under 50 who are not immunocompromised.

@Cherrycee - a friend in France has been told he will only be given one dose of the Pfizer vaccine because he had covid over a year ago. Personally, I find that a bit weird - over a year is a very long time. Every country seems to take a different approach. Only one jab after such a long time lag makes me think it’s a way of stretching limited supplies.

Ps the friend is over 50, too.

*she

@Walkaround A year seems to be pushing it alright, though you'd hope there must be some scientific data that they're basing that decision on. I suppose every country will make their own interpretation.

The MHRA has the data for each age group but are not sharing it with the public. I wrote to them for a freedom of information request for the information but it was declined.

Michael Makris, Professor of Haemostasis and Thrombosis at The University of Sheffield, UK.

Tweeted 7th May:

“So the data on persons less than 50 years vaccinated with AZ in the UK is available, it is shared with the EMA and the Winton centre but the UK public are not allowed to see it. Why not? If they do not want to show the data they should explain why not? @MHRAgovuk@MattHancock"

https://twitter.com/ProfMakris

@EmpressSuiko

For those of us who have already had AZ what are our options? Would I need to wait a full year and then be vaccinated with a different vaccine instead? I don’t feel confident having my second one now.

Your risk would be even lower with the second vaccine if you didn't react to the first .The clotting in relation to AstraZeneca vaccine is thought to be due to an autoimmune response as the vast majority of people that had the reaction had antibodies to platelet factor 4 .

@Cherrycee

On the "6 cases out millions" point, when the clotting issue first came to light we were being told the risk was about one in a million, despite the German and Norwegian data showing a much higher incidence rate. There were silly questions on here about why Germans and Norwegians were so much more susceptible to clots than other nationalities (when the obvious answer was that those two countries were ahead of others in terms of reporting and monitoring). Now the UK data is much more closely aligned to theirs, with incidence rates as high as 1 in 50,000 in some cohorts.

It is sadly inevitable that the incidence rate for second doses will increase as more are administered, particularly as they move down the age groups.

I don't think it's inevitable that there will be more cases of clotting with second doses. If it's due to an autoimmune response to platelets, if people don't react the first time they are even less likely to react the second time.