Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots 2

[Whichjab]

Just starting another thread as so much information still coming out. Interesting that Germany have just allowed AZ for all that want it.

Note, this is not an Anti-Vaccs thread. It is just a discussion about alternatives.

Your risk would be even lower with the second vaccine if you didn't react to the first

It is far too early to state that as fact. Only a small number of people in the highest risk group for clotting will have had a second dose at this point.

I agree @Cherrycee if the younger ages are affected more then you won't know until they start getting their second jabs.

Professor Makris' Twitter feed is interesting. I found this on it:

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jth.15352

A study of Norwegian healthcare workers found that 1.2% of subjects vaccinated with AZ had anti PF4 antibodies. That's really worrying.

[quote Bunbury952]@MrsFezziwig do you know when that information was dated?

If you look at the most recent Winton Centre graphics they have the risk for 40-49 at 1.2 per 100,000 slightly higher than the rate for 50-59. And even higher for women in their 40s. These graphics are only based on the data up to 28 April before many in their 40s had their jabs and before sufficient time had passed to see the onset of adverse effects.

The government are not releasing information about how many in each age group have received AZ. The Winton centre have even said they were given that data to calculate the risks, but aren’t able to share it.[/quote]
I couldn’t find a date on the document - I assumed it was fairly recent since it mentioned offering 30 year olds a different vaccine, but presumably they won’t publish a new version every week.

@Cherrycee

Your risk would be even lower with the second vaccine if you didn't react to the first

It is far too early to state that as fact. Only a small number of people in the highest risk group for clotting will have had a second dose at this point.

If it's due to an autoimmune response to platelets, most people would have reacted the first time if they were going to react. Also, 17 million people have had two doses of a vaccine now and many will have had AstraZeneca. There isn't a huge difference with risk with age and they weren't all elderly anyway. Many of those who received it first were NHS staff and carers.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/984255/PHE_12015_COVID-19_vaccination_and_blood_clotting_leaflet_v2.pdf

For some reason it took a lot longer to find it the second time than the first!

See Bunbury’s point above though about how recent the document is though.

That was for @Rainbowsandstorms

@QueenStromba

Professor Makris' Twitter feed is interesting. I found this on it:

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jth.15352

A study of Norwegian healthcare workers found that 1.2% of subjects vaccinated with AZ had anti PF4 antibodies. That's really worrying.

@QueenStromba what are they? The ones responsible for the blood clot issues?

@AppleJane I think so. I've heard something about platelet 4 (no idea what that actually is though)

@Belladonna12

Let's see where we are this time next month.

I hope you're right but unfortunately it's unlikely, the trends to date point in one direction.

This time last month we were told the risk from a first dose was one in a million, we're more likely to be hit by lightening, there's no risk for the second dose, etc. It's clear that is not the case.

If the theory that the only the first dose triggers the autoimmune response, we wouldn't have any cases after a second dose.

Thanks @AppleJane for that link. Professor Makris' tweets are very interesting to read. He has exactly the same concerns and questions I have about the lack of transparency. So unscientific and troubling.

[quote Cherrycee]**@Belladonna12

Let's see where we are this time next month.

I hope you're right but unfortunately it's unlikely, the trends to date point in one direction.

This time last month we were told the risk from a first dose was one in a million, we're more likely to be hit by lightening, there's no risk for the second dose, etc. It's clear that is not the case.

If the theory that the only the first dose triggers the autoimmune response, we wouldn't have any cases after a second dose.[/quote]
Have there been any cases of blood clotting associated with antibodies to PF4 after the second dose? I haven't seen that and they will have been testing.

Exactly @pingalinga! For weeks now I've been flamed left right and centre on MN for daring to ask the same questions but interestingly when I post a quote by a Professor of Haemostasis and Thrombosis asking the same questions they don't attack 🤔

Yeah, it's the anti-platelet antibody that's causing the VITT.

[quote pingalinga]@MrsFezziwig
I am sceptical if 40-49’s have a 1/100 000 chance, the same as over 50s. The EMA’s much more detailed analysis from 23rd April gives a risk of 1/48 000 for 40-49yr olds and 1/90 000 for 50-59 yr olds 1/100 000 for 60-69 and 1/200 000 for 70-79. So clearly everyone above the age of 40 does not have the same risk.
The MHRA has the data for each age group but are not sharing it with the public. I wrote to them for a freedom of information request for the information but it was declined.[/quote]
Well obviously I didn’t write the document, so if you don’t believe the figures then that’s fine by me. As I stated above, there is no date on the document and there is bound to be a time lag in collating the figures and publishing.

@MrsFezziwig thank you so much for finding the link for me. I had a hunt around but really struggled to locate it. Will wait and see what happens with second doses now.

I know @AppleJane I've been watching you and others get flamed for a while now for saying some of the same things I was thinking. Thought I better get a MN account too though I'm rubbish at using it and show my support.

Aaww that's great @pingalinga proper warms my heart! 💪

Is there a blood test for the anti platelet antibody that could therefore identify people at risk?

@QueenStromba

Yeah, it's the anti-platelet antibody that's causing the VITT.

Blimey @QueenStromba so one person in every one hundred was having that reaction?

Yeah, it's just very mild in most cases.

I agree with @pingalinga

Well done @AppleJane and all the others on here who have had to ensure a stream of abuse for simply telling the truth. You have been vindicated.

It's is not antivax, or stupid, or odd, to review the real, verifiable data and ask questions when the information we're being told doesn't reflect the real picture.

Don't forget @Oaktree55 who was jumped on in December and January for saying that the AZ trial was a complete mess and too small.

I'm not sure you're all congratulating yourselves. The AstraZeneca vaccine has saved a lot of lives and all people have said and are still saying is that the benefits outweigh the risks for most people . The only reason that isn't the case for younger people at the moment is because the risk of Covid itself is low.