Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots 2

[Whichjab]

Just starting another thread as so much information still coming out. Interesting that Germany have just allowed AZ for all that want it.

Note, this is not an Anti-Vaccs thread. It is just a discussion about alternatives.

It just scales up for larger countries. Germany, US and many others have managed to roll out Pfizer effectively. The argument that the UK couldn't possibly manage a larger Pfizer rollout doesn't hold up.

I’ve asked for my post to be deleted due to the incorrect figures. Sempre’s explanation is more nuanced, although I still think in a comparable first world country it should be easier to vaccinate 5 million people than 55. But you can’t administer vaccines that you don’t have and have no chance of getting in the short term.

@MrsFezziwig

It just scales up for larger countries. Germany, US and many others have managed to roll out Pfizer effectively. The argument that the UK couldn't possibly manage a larger Pfizer rollout doesn't hold up.

I’ve asked for my post to be deleted due to the incorrect figures. Sempre’s explanation is more nuanced, although I still think in a comparable first world country it should be easier to vaccinate 5 million people than 55. But you can’t administer vaccines that you don’t have and have no chance of getting in the short term.

I agree. It's easy for people to say that everyone should have a choice but if we don't have enough vaccine we don't have enough . The fact that they don't think those over 50 should get a choice suggests they are happy for other people to be restricted but just not them .

We have time to wait during the summer to obtain whatever supplies we want. It's only because the government want to complete their roadmap date promises.

And by and large they have popular support for this. If people are dying because of lockdown (I don’t know if this is your opinion but it is the opinion of many on here) how do you square this with slowing down the easing of restrictions?

Using how much current supply you have as a defining factor when people are dying of side effects is wrong IMO.

What a bizarre statement. How can it be "wrong" to not offer a vaccine if none is available? They can only offer vaccine that is available.

We have time to wait during the summer to obtain whatever supplies we want. It's only because the government want to complete their roadmap date promises.

People can wait if they want. They are being "offered" a vaccine not forced to have it.

twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1390745883495501825?s=19

This is why we can't just wait it out over the summer for more of a certain vaccine to be available.
Even if vaccines aren't as good for the Indian variants as for the original Covid (and we don't know yet) we need to reduce the spread of it and the only tools we have at the moment are our current vaccines and lockdowns.

It looks like Germany have decided to stop restricting AZ vaccine to people over 60.

www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-germany-opens-up-astrazeneca-covid-vaccines-for-all-adults/a-57453351

Ps @Kaylasmum49 - your risk of the type of blood clot you are worried about is far higher from getting covid than from any of the vaccines.

Just to clarify the Germany situation as it’s slightly misrepresented in the British headlines. People under 60 were allowed to choose AZ all along if they were eligible to be vaccinated and happy to take AZ. What has changed now is that while the vaccine rollout is still on over 60s and CVs, they are at the same time allowing anyone under 60 to come forward and have AZ now, rather than waiting till it’s their turn for Moderna or Pfizer. Crucially, people have a choice.

And @Walkaround, you seem to think I personally want a choice. I don’t, I’ve already been vaccinated. Most of my family and friends have had the jab and those who haven’t will be offered something other than AZ. So I’m personally not affected by the whole AZ issue. What bothers me are the bigger ethical questions. Is it right to withhold, delay or obfuscate information? Is it right to keep pushing on with a vaccine that has a questionable benefit vs risk profile and can kill healthy people, when there are safer alternatives? Is it right to accept that there will be dozens of unnecessary deaths for the sake of not slowing down the rollout? Etc.

As for the UK’s dependence on AZ, you can’t claim there is no over reliance on AZ and then at the same time say that there aren’t enough alternatives available to pivot the rollout strategy. It’s one or the other.

‘A delay to the roll out by no under 50s having AZ and waiting for other vaccines’

Once again, anyone who really wants AZ after having been given all currently available information should absolutely still have it. But people are not being given the full picture and have to go searching for information. As things stand in the UK, there are over 40s now saying they don’t want their jab because they are scared it will be AZ, and people saying they won’t go for their second jab. You could actually argue that NOT giving people (of any age) a choice at this point will cause more of a delay, which is an argument made by the JVCI for allowing the choice for under 40s. Why not include everyone who hasn’t been vaccinated at this point?

I’m with @nordica on this, I think eventually they will offer alternatives to everyone as they mop up the stragglers.

@Schulte

Just to clarify the Germany situation as it’s slightly misrepresented in the British headlines. People under 60 were allowed to choose AZ all along if they were eligible to be vaccinated and happy to take AZ. What has changed now is that while the vaccine rollout is still on over 60s and CVs, they are at the same time allowing anyone under 60 to come forward and have AZ now, rather than waiting till it’s their turn for Moderna or Pfizer. Crucially, people have a choice.

They have the same choice here in reality if they are over 40. They can have Astra Zeneca now or wait until another vaccine is available to them.

@Schulte

As for the UK’s dependence on AZ, you can’t claim there is no over reliance on AZ and then at the same time say that there aren’t enough alternatives available to pivot the rollout strategy. It’s one or the other.

People are saying that there aren't enough alternatives as the moment and while that might mean that we are dependent on Astra Zeneca at the moment it isn't because the UK is choosing to be. No one knew when the vaccines were ordered last year what would be safest or most effective.

@Schulte

‘A delay to the roll out by no under 50s having AZ and waiting for other vaccines’

Once again, anyone who really wants AZ after having been given all currently available information should absolutely still have it. But people are not being given the full picture and have to go searching for information. As things stand in the UK, there are over 40s now saying they don’t want their jab because they are scared it will be AZ, and people saying they won’t go for their second jab. You could actually argue that NOT giving people (of any age) a choice at this point will cause more of a delay, which is an argument made by the JVCI for allowing the choice for under 40s. Why not include everyone who hasn’t been vaccinated at this point?

I’m with @nordica on this, I think eventually they will offer alternatives to everyone as they mop up the stragglers.

Nobody knows the full picture yet but I don't think that what we do know has been hidden. I don't see how not giving between the ages of 40 and 50 choice is going to delay the rollout. Most people over 50 have been vaccinated . Everyone under 40 will be offered an alternative.

I am 40 and now won't be having AZ. Talking to my friends, I am not the only one. First jab booked for tomo, and if it's AZ I won't be having it at this point.

@Schulte

As for the UK’s dependence on AZ, you can’t claim there is no over reliance on AZ and then at the same time say that there aren’t enough alternatives available to pivot the rollout strategy. It’s one or the other.

@Schulte - what do you actually mean here and who are you talking to? I haven’t made any comments whatsoever at any point to suggest we are not over-reliant on one vaccine at the moment?! Self-evidently at the moment we have to rely more on AZ than anything else. If people don’t want that, nobody has ever told them they are not entitled to wait until supplies of alternatives are available in sufficient quantities that they will eventually have a choice. So why all this getting your knickers in a twist, insisting choice should exist now for vaccination now, regardless of the impact on availability of alternatives to AZ in the near future, when younger people are looking for them? That’s just living in a fantasy land where we don’t have a global pandemic and are not in any doubt about supplies appearing reliably and consistently when we click our fingers (despite evidence around the world that vaccine supplies do not work like that).

And there is no need to search for information about the blood clots - you are told about the risks of a rare blood clot and given a letter about it before you get vaccinated. You are asked if you have read this and still want to go ahead. It has been reported and discussed ad nauseam in a wide variety of places. You see some kind of cover up, I see some people getting extremely obsessed about their risk-benefit analysis, when the reality is your vaccine risk doesn’t change by waiting about until there’s more covid again, except probably to increase if covid rates go up as rare blood clots will then more likely not be dealt with in a timely fashion. Only the vaccine benefit swings wildly about, depending on your personal guess as to how quickly the covid situation can change and whether you are now personally happy to take the same risk of a blood clot as you would have had if you had accepted the vaccine earlier. People can take the risk of not getting vaccinated now if they want to, they just cannot claim they are certain that fewer people will suffer and die if things are organised their way than if they are organised the way they currently are. Stop trying to turn this into a black and white issue, where you are right and the JCVI is wrong. You just disagree with the powers that be, that is all.

How am I turning it into a black and white issue? I’ve said many times that it is indeed a fine balance, only I sit on the other side of the fence from you.

It is true that each individual’s risk is not changing, but our understanding of the risk is, and so far that risk has only gone up as more data has come in. As has been discussed many times on this thread, the actual risk to younger women is likely to be higher than what we’re currently told. Most of the clotting data from the 40-50 age group has not come through yet in the yellow card reports and I suspect when it does, it won’t look pretty. I hope I’m wrong.

They have the same choice here in reality if they are over 40. They can have Astra Zeneca now or wait until another vaccine is available to them.

It's not the same at all. In Germany someone can take their place in the queue and get Pfizer or Moderna, or have a chance to jump ahead by volunteering for AZ.

In the UK, someone over 40 has to give up their place in the queue to avoid AZ, and wait an unspecified amount of time in the hope they might get a choice in the future.

@Schulte

How am I turning it into a black and white issue? I’ve said many times that it is indeed a fine balance, only I sit on the other side of the fence from you.

It is true that each individual’s risk is not changing, but our understanding of the risk is, and so far that risk has only gone up as more data has come in. As has been discussed many times on this thread, the actual risk to younger women is likely to be higher than what we’re currently told. Most of the clotting data from the 40-50 age group has not come through yet in the yellow card reports and I suspect when it does, it won’t look pretty. I hope I’m wrong.

I agree, and I've gone all around the houses in my head on this whole thing since the announcement yesterday. My risk profile as an individual hasn't changed, and I've always been pro-any jab. However, based on the latest data, my views on suitability for AZ for me has changed. And I am going to wait for more data to emerge if I'm to have AZ. I really want to be vaccinated but at the moment, AZ is too much of a risk for me in my view, as a 40-year old.

@Cherrycee

They have the same choice here in reality if they are over 40. They can have Astra Zeneca now or wait until another vaccine is available to them.

It's not the same at all. In Germany someone can take their place in the queue and get Pfizer or Moderna, or have a chance to jump ahead by volunteering for AZ.

In the UK, someone over 40 has to give up their place in the queue to avoid AZ, and wait an unspecified amount of time in the hope they might get a choice in the future.

It's not necessarily a case of giving up a place in the queue though. I don't think that if you turn down AZ you automatically go to the back of the queue (altho I admit I don't actually know that!)

I am planning to go to my vaccination place tomo morning and find out what they are giving out. If it's only AZ I will cancel (my appointment is pretty much the last of the day) and hopefully be able to re-book elsewhere for the coming weeks. Of course, this may all go tits up and I may be stuck with no jab for ages. If I have to cancel tomorrow, I will hopefully rebook tomorrow for dates in the not too distant future, at somewhere which has been mentioned on here as having Moderna/Pfizer.

To be clear, my appointment is tomorrow late afternoon and I'm planning to go to the place in the morning and then if I have to cancel I'll do so with enough time for someone else to have my appointment if they want it. I went there today to try to find out, but they were closed.

My DDs who are both in their early 20s have had the AZ jab. They both intend to go ahead with their 2nd AZ vaccine and I totally agree with them. Yes they will be more aware of any symptoms that may indicate a clot but both want to be fully vaccinated. I have had the Pfizer jab and DH the AZ - we took what we were offered.

@LondonWFuck

You might be able to rebook appointments, but you could keep getting offered AZ and you won't know until you turn up. There's no way right now to ensure you get Pfizer or Moderna because you're not being offered a choice. That's why I'm saying the German system works better, people are able to make an informed choice without taking the risk that they won't be offered a vaccine for months on end.

@Schulte - yet you make it sound suspiciously like you actually think it is black and white by writing things like this: “ Is it right to withhold, delay or obfuscate information? Is it right to keep pushing on with a vaccine that has a questionable benefit vs risk profile and can kill healthy people, when there are safer alternatives? Is it right to accept that there will be dozens of unnecessary deaths for the sake of not slowing down the rollout? ”