Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots 2

[Whichjab]

Just starting another thread as so much information still coming out. Interesting that Germany have just allowed AZ for all that want it.

Note, this is not an Anti-Vaccs thread. It is just a discussion about alternatives.

Pfizer makes up the vast majority of our supply here in Ireland, and indeed in most EU countries. We manage fine with it. Yes there are storage considerations but it's not a problem, it has been administered at GP surgeries for months now. It was used by mobile vaccination teams in nursing homes too.

And if you read these threats, lots of people are still very happy to have AZ.

People are very happy to have it rather than no vaccine but most people if given the choice would prefer Pfizer or Moderna. There isn't enough though and that is why not everybody is being given the choice.

Agree Schulte. Would even question whether the high prevalence charts being presented are relevant to the current dilemma.

If the vaccines work as expected and hoped then the UK is no longer at risk of widespread high prevalence having vaccinated well over 50% of the adult population including over 90% of the high risk categories. If the vaccines don't suppress future high prevalence then their efficacy is much lower than implied.

If the only way to prevent recurrence is repeated boosters then agree with pp that AZ is not an option. However this also affects the risk / benefit calculation of when / what to vaccinate with initially for the remaining population who are by definition at lower risk.

@Schulte

To the posters constantly saying ‘but we wouldn’t be where we are now without AZ’, how is that a counter argument to what I’m saying - that all under 50s should have been given the option to access a different vaccine as soon as the link became clear in late March or early April? Covid numbers were already low at that time so the possible delay would hardly have caused a huge spike or hundreds of deaths. Nobody here is saying AZ shouldn’t have been used at all.

Because there weren't other vaccines available in those numbers, so cases wouldn't have been suppressed to the extent they have been. Many, many millions of people, including those under 50 have safely had the AZ vaccine. We know its effective at reducing covid levels as the numbers speak for themselves. I just don't really get the point you are trying to make? AZ has played a magnificent role in the roll out here, its a bit chicken and egg. A delay to the roll out by no under 50s having AZ and waiting for other vaccines to be delivered or approved would mean covid cases were higher and the swing balance of risk of vaccine vs covid would have been different; guidance would very much be that it's worth getting. As cases are low because of the vaccine (including many under 50s having AZ) guidance is changing, but if you wish to apply that retrospectively and say x million shouldn't have had it based on where we are now, the current numbers wouldn't be where they are so it wouldn't apply and the guidance would be to get it.

What is happening now isn't relevant to what 'should have happened as numbers wouldn't be the same.

@Cherrycee

Pfizer makes up the vast majority of our supply here in Ireland, and indeed in most EU countries. We manage fine with it. Yes there are storage considerations but it's not a problem, it has been administered at GP surgeries for months now. It was used by mobile vaccination teams in nursing homes too.

Any mass vaccination centres?

@Belladonna12

And if you read these threats, lots of people are still very happy to have AZ.

People are very happy to have it rather than no vaccine but most people if given the choice would prefer Pfizer or Moderna. There isn't enough though and that is why not everybody is being given the choice.

I don't get what statements like this are thrown about, where do you get the idea that 'most people's would prefer another?

In my area in London there was loads of oversupply of AZ due to low uptake from the vulnerable groups (big Asian population who apparently haven’t been accepting the vaccine), so DH and I and lots of friends in early 30s were offered it by the GP a few weeks ago. I had awful side effects that lasted 2.5 weeks and was terrified the whole time. I won’t be accepting the second dose.

Hello @Fieldofmemes it's definitely good news we're moving in the right direction!

How did your email response to the oblivious MP go?! Slightly embarrassing he didn't check out the current situation before replying

I don't get what statements like this are thrown about, where do you get the idea that 'most people's would prefer another?

I get the idea from the fact that most people would prefer the vaccines that have been found to be most effective in clinical trials and for which there hasn't been huge media coverage regarding safety. Do you not think the majority would be opting for Pfizer or Moderna at the moment if they could?

@Schulte

To the posters constantly saying ‘but we wouldn’t be where we are now without AZ’, how is that a counter argument to what I’m saying - that all under 50s should have been given the option to access a different vaccine as soon as the link became clear in late March or early April? Covid numbers were already low at that time so the possible delay would hardly have caused a huge spike or hundreds of deaths. Nobody here is saying AZ shouldn’t have been used at all.

@Schulte I admire your ability to keep debating. For a number of us we don't care about the whys and whereforths of what's gone before but pure and simply the fact that under 50s right now should have a choice.

Im hopeful that it will come in the next week or two but I'm worried about how bad the numbers are going to be after the bank holiday push. It's not vaccine hesitancy, its government hesitancy and its shameful.

@Schulte I admire your ability to keep debating. For a number of us we don't care about the whys and whereforths of what's gone before but pure and simply the fact that under 50s right now should have a choice.

Why do you feel that only people under 50 should have a choice? If you think there is enough vaccines go around surely everyone should have a choice.

Okay @Belladonna12 I think everyone should have a choice but if this is not possible then at the very least everyone under 50/60. Happy now?

@AppleJane

Okay *@Belladonna12* I think everyone should have a choice but if this is not possible then at the very least everyone under 50/60. Happy now?

So you do accept that if supplies are limited whether or not you get a choice should depend on age.

A delay to the roll out by no under 50s having AZ and waiting for other vaccines to be delivered or approved would mean covid cases were higher and the swing balance of risk of vaccine vs covid would have been different; guidance would very much be that it's worth getting. As cases are low because of the vaccine (including many under 50s having AZ) guidance is changing, but if you wish to apply that retrospectively and say x million shouldn't have had it based on where we are now, the current numbers wouldn't be where they are so it wouldn't apply and the guidance would be to get it.

This exactly. According to some posters, we should have just locked down for a few more weeks while further supplies arrived (including of Novavax, which isn’t even available yet). I hope whoever suggested that doesn’t simultaneously hold the opinion that lockdown has been killing thousands of people, as that definitely skews the risk/benefit calculation.

The situation looked a lot different back when the 50s age group was being vaccinated though. That's the problem with very rare side effects- you only know about them after a lot of people have already taken the vaccine.

In general it's not unusual for the risk vs benefit calculation to be age based of course, and in the context of the current circumstances. AZ is still an amazing vaccine for people in their 30s in India and the benefits far, far outweigh any risks. It was also an amazing vaccine for people in their 60s and probably even 50s in the UK earlier this year when covid levels were high and hospitals almost at capacity.

Any mass vaccination centres?

Yes of course, but those are easy in terms of logistics for Pfizer. The point I was making is that it's possible to do a widespread rollout involving GPs, etc, even with the storage requirements.

Population of EU (mostly all taking Irish approach) approx 500m. And actually population of UK is approx 67m but population of England is only approx 55m. Population of USA over 300m and also taking the Irish approach.

Not sure population is a relevant factor in a logistics discussion. More about availability, accessibility, quality of healthcare and population density.

@nordica

The situation looked a lot different back when the 50s age group was being vaccinated though. That's the problem with very rare side effects- you only know about them after a lot of people have already taken the vaccine.

In general it's not unusual for the risk vs benefit calculation to be age based of course, and in the context of the current circumstances. AZ is still an amazing vaccine for people in their 30s in India and the benefits far, far outweigh any risks. It was also an amazing vaccine for people in their 60s and probably even 50s in the UK earlier this year when covid levels were high and hospitals almost at capacity.

Not everyone over 50 has been vaccinated yet though. It seems quite hypocritical that some people are outraged that not everyone under 50 is being given the choice but quite happy for those who are over 50 to not get a choice. If they don't think age should come into it then why is it okay not to give people over 50 a choice.

I am due my second AZ vaccine in 3 weeks and am really considering not having it. My mum died aged 45 from a stroke, as a result of that I was advised not to take the contraceptive pill. I worry that my risks are higher for a blood clot because of this. I am 54.

The way I see it is that the over 50s have been eligible for vaccination for a long time now and have benefited from that. The roll out was going much quicker at that point and then slowed down as soon as the over 50s goal was met. At least everyone I know (in all age groups) who have already had their first or both jabs have been making the most of feeling safer for a long while now and slightly bending the rules ("it's ok we're all vaccinated"...).

I have a feeling the final mop up of the most vaccine hesitant will eventually come with more choice anyway. The most hesitant in the older age groups tend to not want any covid vaccine though, not just a specific one - of course there are some exceptions.

I don't remember there being much talk about wanting to avoid AZ back in March though.

So you do accept that if supplies are limited whether or not you get a choice should depend on age.

No. I don't agree with anything you say but then I don't expect you to agree with me. I don't think any decision should be made solely on supplies while current covid rates are low.

Using how much current supply you have as a defining factor when people are dying of side effects is wrong IMO. We have time to wait during the summer to obtain whatever supplies we want. It's only because the government want to complete their roadmap date promises.

@nordica

The way I see it is that the over 50s have been eligible for vaccination for a long time now and have benefited from that. The roll out was going much quicker at that point and then slowed down as soon as the over 50s goal was met. At least everyone I know (in all age groups) who have already had their first or both jabs have been making the most of feeling safer for a long while now and slightly bending the rules ("it's ok we're all vaccinated"...).

I have a feeling the final mop up of the most vaccine hesitant will eventually come with more choice anyway. The most hesitant in the older age groups tend to not want any covid vaccine though, not just a specific one - of course there are some exceptions.

I don't remember there being much talk about wanting to avoid AZ back in March though.

There certainly was talk about whether AZ was associated with blood clots in March and some people were quite wary because of it . Regardless , I don't really see what the benefits for those over 50 who have been vaccinated has got to do with those who haven't been vaccinated yet. If people don't think that they should be restricted in choice because of their age why do they think people who are over 50 who have not yet been vaccinated should be restricted?

@Kaylasmum49 - as people on here do like to point out, the type of clot you get from the contraceptive pill and the extremely rare type of clot being discussed on here following AZ are two completely different things with completely different causes. You don’t get clots with low platelet levels as a consequence of the contraceptive pill. If anything, the risk of the same sort of clot you can get from the contraceptive pill is greater with Pfizer than AZ.