School pupils vaccinated from September

[Totalbeach]

This is in lots of papers today. Such as:

www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19274021.secondary-school-pupils-set-get-covid-jab-september/

And:

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/02/nhs-england-draws-up-plan-to-give-covid-jabs-to-children-12-and-over

What’s your reaction?

Mine is that I 100% won’t be allowing my children to be vaccinated.

In the whole pandemic so far, 12 children under 15 have died in the U.K. That increases to 32 in the under 20s. The mortality rate is vanishingly tiny. A huge percentage of kids don’t even get symptoms at all.

The government has assured us till they are blue in the face that schools are safe and that children don’t spread it so it will be interesting to see what kind of enormous gaslighting they attempt to pull off to persuade parents they now need to vaccinate their kids.

The long term effects of the vaccines are totally unknown and recent events with AZ have proved rather horribly that even after a vaccine is rolled out, serious effects can come to light. Including events that disproportionately affect certain age groups.

I’m fully vaccinated (including first Covid vaccine) as are my kids but there is no way I’d let them be vaccinated in September. With any of the vaccines.

@Roonerspismed

I think the morals is vaccinating one sector of the population to protect another is highly questionable

Especially when there is currently no evidence that the vaccine doesn't actually do more harm than the virus itself in that sector.

'think the morals is vaccinating one sector of the population to protect another is highly questionable'

Oh well that's funny because I was under the impression this last year has had a massive impact on young people, lost education etc and all the psychological damage. So they may be less at risk of serious disease but they suffer as much as the rest of us when lockdowns are needed due to exponential spread. Obviously.

@JaniieJones

'think the morals is vaccinating one sector of the population to protect another is highly questionable'

Oh well that's funny because I was under the impression this last year has had a massive impact on young people, lost education etc and all the psychological damage. So they may be less at risk of serious disease but they suffer as much as the rest of us when lockdowns are needed due to exponential spread. Obviously.

Kids hardly ever get properly sick with Covid and almost never end up in hospital. If the adult population is vaccinated and kids aren't at risk, we won't need lockdowns or school shutdowns. It's not a case of 'pick your poison'.

'Kids hardly ever get properly sick with Covid and almost never end up in hospital'

No but as I said it isn't all about deaths or hospitals it is about keeping community spread low. A pp suggested vaccinating kids to protect others is questionable. It isn't. We all suffer together when restrictions are in place and vaccine resistant variants are possibilities.

They'll be folk here in the autumn saying Johnson should be locking down as there's escalating cases in bubz school.

@Roonerspismed. I don’t honestly think that the vaccine will have any worse effect on my DD at 16 than it would if she’s were 18. I’m also strongly influenced by my cousin’s experience of long Covid. It’s been horrifying seeing the effect on a previously healthy woman in her 30’s. She’s not someone you’d assume would get so ill-no previous health conditions at all.

@JaniieJones

'Kids hardly ever get properly sick with Covid and almost never end up in hospital'

No but as I said it isn't all about deaths or hospitals it is about keeping community spread low. A pp suggested vaccinating kids to protect others is questionable. It isn't. We all suffer together when restrictions are in place and vaccine resistant variants are possibilities.

They'll be folk here in the autumn saying Johnson should be locking down as there's escalating cases in bubz school.

As I said... vaccine resistant variants are a possibility while the virus continues to spread. The spread between children in the UK (many of whom will have immunity) isn't the only or even the main source of worldwide transmission. So unless we close the borders, the risk of variants exist even if we take the risk of giving our children a new vaccine with unknown long-term effects.

If hospitals aren't filling up, they will have absolutely no reason to lock down, spread or no spread.

Over my dead body will be children have this. We have NO idea of the long-term effects. It is morally wrong. If they choose to have it when they are older (cannot fathom why but..) that is their choice. But I would not be able to live with myself inflicting a trial drug on my children with absolutely no benefit to them.

Let's put it this way:

There are 12.7 million children in the UK.

AFTER the AZ vaccine was rolled out, a 'vanishingly rare' side effect involving catastrophic clots/multiple clots in the brain was discovered. The rate of incidence now stands at 9 in a million, though it's climbing every week. Mortality rate of around 40%. It has been found to disproportionately affect younger people and women. Research is ongoing. NONE of this was known before rollout.

If there is a similar 'vanishingly rare' side effect with Pfizer that hasn't been picked up because only a tiny number of under 16s have been vaccinated so far, then 9 in a million = 114 children in the UK with vaccine-induced blood clots in their brains. 46 deaths. That would be more than all under 16s who have died from Covid in the UK since the start of the pandemic.

Now obviously Pfizer isn't going to cause the exact same problem as AZ. But we don't know what it's going to cause. They didn't know about AZ. They still don't know why it's happening. And what's happened with AZ is still considered 'extremely rare' - but not as rare as a child dying of Covid in the UK. That's why I think it's entirely plausible that the vaccine could end up being more risk than the disease itself in children.

@Roonerspismed
We talked it through with friends from the medical research (virus) area and gastro doc and came to the conclusion that:

• yes, it has not been trialed on a large scal
• but, similar type (mRNA) has been trialed in infants even, and the side effects don't indicate that it will have an adverse effect

On the other hand: 10-30% chance of having long-covid or IBD triggered for the rest of his life is too high. Again, this is personal choice and risk analysis I don't ever want to convince anyone to vaccinate their kids. I understand the reservations. I also think that without the kids being vaxxed we are leaving a huge pool of spreaders and mutation hosts.

I agree children are at such low risk from covid but having seen it rip through all four of mine in a week and make them very ill I’d rather had been vaccinated, they’ve all lost their taste and smell (as have I) that’s a big deal! Imagine waking up one day pre covid and you kids can’t smell or taste a single thing, you’d be at the docs/hosp pronto! Now it’s just oh yeah it’s a side effect of covid..... well what about the other effects on their bodies and mine that we don’t yet see evidence of? If vaccinated then those things will be prevented for most people and the main thing is even ifu get poorly for a few days you don’t end up in hospital or worse. I think a vaccine is worth having to remove that risk. I’m glad I had mine , im sure it’s helped limit my symptoms and given me some resilience for recovery, oh yes and I can still look after my kids as I’m not in hospital. Still it would have been better if they hadn’t transmitted this horrendous virus to me, dh and each other in the first place, vaccines help reduce transmission so I will be first in the line when they get offered, i really don’t want to see them suffer like they did again from something that could have been prevented or limited by a simple vaccine, kids are rarely hospitalised but that doesnt mean they only have a wee sniffle and carry on trampolining, mine were in bed dosed up (by weight so slightly higher doses than on bottle) of calpol etc and still were clearly not well at all.

Thesunisstillshining, I can see why you might not want your child to have vaccine, there are many children/adults that will need to have the vaccine in order to protect those that genuinely cannot so hopefully if people do that it will protect your child

@Slowdownandsee
you misunderstood me: I can't wait for it to be approved for 15 year olds.

@Ninefeettall

Let's put it this way:

There are 12.7 million children in the UK.

AFTER the AZ vaccine was rolled out, a 'vanishingly rare' side effect involving catastrophic clots/multiple clots in the brain was discovered. The rate of incidence now stands at 9 in a million, though it's climbing every week. Mortality rate of around 40%. It has been found to disproportionately affect younger people and women. Research is ongoing. NONE of this was known before rollout.

If there is a similar 'vanishingly rare' side effect with Pfizer that hasn't been picked up because only a tiny number of under 16s have been vaccinated so far, then 9 in a million = 114 children in the UK with vaccine-induced blood clots in their brains. 46 deaths. That would be more than all under 16s who have died from Covid in the UK since the start of the pandemic.

Now obviously Pfizer isn't going to cause the exact same problem as AZ. But we don't know what it's going to cause. They didn't know about AZ. They still don't know why it's happening. And what's happened with AZ is still considered 'extremely rare' - but not as rare as a child dying of Covid in the UK. That's why I think it's entirely plausible that the vaccine could end up being more risk than the disease itself in children.

According to this Government data, incidence of clots is 10 in a million with a mortality of 20%.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/984404/PHE_COVID-19_AZ_vaccine_and_blood_clots_factsheet_7May2021.pdf

So your main hypothetical contention isn't true. According to the information below

"there have been:

2 deaths in children aged 1 year and under.
1 death in children aged 1–4 years old.
3 deaths in children aged 5–9 years old.
6 deaths in children aged 10–14 years old.
20 deaths in children aged 15–19 years old."

post.parliament.uk/latest-evidence-on-impacts-of-covid-19-in-children-march-2021/

Also, according to research coming out from another Oxford team (Prof Paul Harrison), the incidence of clots is 10 times greater with covid infection than with the vaccine.

There is certainly an argument to be made for vaccinating young people, though we need to continue to consider the facts carefully.

Sorry thensunisstillshining 🙈

@Roonerspismed

Can I ask a question? Those of you that are happy; do you not have concerns about the lack of long term data on any of these vaccines? For example, there is now more research going on into menstrual effects - so know it can impact the hormonal system - but as far as I can see we have little idea what can happen longer term. Does this not bother you in terms of DC who are at negligible risk from the virus itself?

You say the risk is 'negligible'. Is it? How do you know? Have we actually seen the long-term effects of Covid on children yet?

I have fewer concerns about the unknown long-term effect of vaccines than I do about the unknown long-term effects of Covid.

How about you?

Does it not bother you that your children are at risk of unknown long-term effects from getting Covid?

I have fewer concerns about the unknown long-term effect of vaccines than I do about the unknown long-term effects of Covid.

Exactly. The mRNA vaccines will briefly cause your cells to produce the covid spike protein, creating an immune system response. The actual virus will use the spike protein to enter your cells and highjack them to produce more live viruses, which then goes on to attack your body in all sorts of horrid ways.

One of these risks is not like the other.

medium.com/microbial-instincts/concerns-of-lipid-nanoparticle-carrying-mrna-vaccine-into-the-brain-what-to-make-of-it-42b1a98dae27

Article above is quite balanced and insightful.

Do I have concerns about my kids getting covid? Not really, no. And one of my kids has a minor heart issue. I make sure we are all as healthy as we can be, slim, active but not too active. Optimise immune nutrients.

My sister had covid and then mild long covid. She is fine now.

I am quite concerned for humanity in case there are long term issues with the vaccines though! I really hope I’m wrong.

@Roonerspismed

Article above is quite balanced and insightful.

Do I have concerns about my kids getting covid? Not really, no. And one of my kids has a minor heart issue. I make sure we are all as healthy as we can be, slim, active but not too active. Optimise immune nutrients.

My sister had covid and then mild long covid. She is fine now.

I am quite concerned for humanity in case there are long term issues with the vaccines though! I really hope I’m wrong.

Why are you so convinced that there will be no unexpected long-term effects from the Covid virus? On what do you base that assumption?

It seems odd that you're so willing to believe there will be long-term effects from a carefully researched and tested vaccine, yet you're so determined NOT to believe there will be long-term effects from a virus that has already demonstrated many unexpected long-term effects.

I'm not sure what the anecdote about your sister is meant to prove?

I'm not sure what the anecdote about your sister is meant to prove?

It's a common logical fallacy known as "cherry picking". A discrete data point that supports a point of view is presented while data that refutes that point of view are ignored.

She's also ignored the conclusion of the bmj blog post she linked to:

***

Steve Pascolo, Ph.D., co-founder of CureVac, is one of the earliest researchers to advocate for mRNA vaccines' potential in 2004. He also has an impressive publishing record on mRNA vaccines and was kind enough to respond to my email inquiring about this topic. Dr. Pascolo admits that some cells that take up the mRNA and express spike proteins on their surface might get destroyed by cytotoxic T-cells. But he added:

…that is what happens to a much higher grade and in all organs when we get infected by SARS-CoV-2…or vaccinated with live viral vaccines…With the mRNA vaccine (30 micrograms in the muscle) <strong>the eventual destruction of cells by CD8 [cytotoxic T-cells] would always be very minor compared to what happens in infection when the viruses infect virtually all cells in all organs and the immune system is fully activated to get rid of it…”</strong>

Thus, the mere 30 micrograms of mRNA vaccine injected intramuscularly pale in comparison to the actual virus infection in the capacity to trigger cytotoxic T-cell attacks in the brain or elsewhere. And yes, SARS-CoV-2 is capable of invading the brain and many other organs.

Indeed, experts in the mRNA discussion google group who first raised the hypothetical risks of LNP-encapsulated mRNA vaccines are still pro-vaccine, agreeing that SARS-CoV-2 or Covid-19 is the larger threat.

Why am I not worried? Because the data in covid shows that it’s a low risk to young and healthy people. There are things you can do to optimise that - I can therefore control some of the covid risk.

I can’t control the risk from the vaccines - I either get one or I don’t. (I can’t even decide which one I get). The data for the vaccines is ever evolving and I was shocked the the MHRA missed the initial clot issues. Dumbfounded shocked. Absolutely astonished. And then data about the risks was delayed until after the bank holiday weekend. Therefore I have lost faith in our regulator.

I know a number of people who have had covid and all have recovered well. I know several who are struggling weeks after their vaccines, one who has died and one seriously ill. All elderly by the way and in each and every case these effects have been dismissed as coincidental. This upsets me hugely

So yes - covid I will take. The vaccine - I’m watching. And it won’t be going anywhere near my kids.

missconduct I didn’t ignore anything and also saw that. Doesn’t mean I agree with the conclusion if personal covid risks are very very low.

If the mRNA vaccines do cross to the brain and cause issues later, then that risk assessment is tipped quickly. We saw that with AZ

DD20 had covid last year, poorly for a few days but that was it, she made a full recovery within a week.
I wouldn't feel confident letting DS13 have the vaccine. He's already got neuro problems and learning difficulties.

DH and I have both been jabbed though, just waiting for second one this week.

We'd also rather take our risks with the vaccines than with covid. For a lot of reasons.

Actually @herecomesthsun

According to this Government data, incidence of clots is 10 in a million with a mortality of 20%.

That's not true. It's 10.5 per million overall but actually 17.5 per million for those aged 30 - 39 - highlighting my point about the risk getting higher as they jabbed younger people. The death rate for 30 - 39 is 4.5 per million (26%). A similar death rate would see more children dead from the vaccine than from Covid in the entire pandemic in the UK so far. I'd imagine that those who don't die from a blood clot in the brain may not have a good quality of life either so the actual 'life changing' casualties could be much higher.

But regardless - that's not the point. I'm not saying Pfizer is AZ or the same thing could happen. I'm saying that when rolling out a new vaccine, rare events can happen. Since Covid death in children is also an extremely rare event, it's entirely plausible that a vaccine rare event could actually be more dangerous than Covid. If they'd rolled out AZ to kids, that would most likely have been a reality.

The 'clot risk ten times more with Covid' argument doesn't stand up because it's only ten times the risk in hospitalised patients. Children hardly ever end up in hospital with it. And you have to catch Covid in the first place to even be at risk of severe disease, which we know most children aren't. Besides which, once again, I'm not saying that Pfizer could definitely be THIS risk. I'm saying Pfizer could be A risk. The scientists who developed the AZ vaccine did not know the blood clotting risk would happen. They still don't know why it has happened. That means there's a risk that there's more they don't know about this or any other new vaccine. And since there is almost no Covid risk, we need a compelling reason for putting our children at risk.