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School pupils vaccinated from September

778 replies

Totalbeach · 02/05/2021 17:55

This is in lots of papers today. Such as:

www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19274021.secondary-school-pupils-set-get-covid-jab-september/

And:

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/02/nhs-england-draws-up-plan-to-give-covid-jabs-to-children-12-and-over

What’s your reaction?

Mine is that I 100% won’t be allowing my children to be vaccinated.

In the whole pandemic so far, 12 children under 15 have died in the U.K. That increases to 32 in the under 20s. The mortality rate is vanishingly tiny. A huge percentage of kids don’t even get symptoms at all.

The government has assured us till they are blue in the face that schools are safe and that children don’t spread it so it will be interesting to see what kind of enormous gaslighting they attempt to pull off to persuade parents they now need to vaccinate their kids.

The long term effects of the vaccines are totally unknown and recent events with AZ have proved rather horribly that even after a vaccine is rolled out, serious effects can come to light. Including events that disproportionately affect certain age groups.

I’m fully vaccinated (including first Covid vaccine) as are my kids but there is no way I’d let them be vaccinated in September. With any of the vaccines.

OP posts:
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wasthataburp · 06/05/2021 20:04

No, there is absolutely no need (unless they have existing conditions which makes them high risk). We don't know the long term affects yet not to mention that the trials don't finish for a long time yet. I will make my decision then

wasthataburp · 06/05/2021 20:08

@OldScrappyAndHungry

Kids get mass flu vaccinations every year to protect elderly relatives - what’s the difference??
No difference at all in theory. It's simply that this particular vaccination is still in trials. Once the trial is over and the long term affects are determined and assuming it's proven safe then l will get myself and my kids vaccinated
wasthataburp · 06/05/2021 20:09

@DinosaurDiana

I’m not quite sure why people get so upset about this. You are offered it, you say yes or no. It’s not being forced on anyone.
Exactly.
656times · 06/05/2021 20:11

Er no! Happy to have my own jabs but there’s no way I’m letting my children be vaccinated.

MissConductUS · 06/05/2021 20:18

@wasthataburp

No, there is absolutely no need (unless they have existing conditions which makes them high risk). We don't know the long term affects yet not to mention that the trials don't finish for a long time yet. I will make my decision then
The Pfizer clinical trials for ages 12-15 are done and they have applied to the US FDA for authorization. I posted a link about it up thread. The trials for younger groups are underway and are probably three months or so from completion.

Moderna announced today that their vaccine has a 96% efficacy rate in ages 12-17, so their clinical trail for that cohort is well underway, if not nearing completion.

Moderna says early data shows Covid vaccine is 96% effective in teens

We don't know the long term effects of the vaccines in adults either since they've only been in widespread use for a few months. I guess it depends on how you define "long term".

wasthataburp · 06/05/2021 20:37

@MissConductUS Pfizer trials end 31st jan 2023, moderna 27th October 2022. I assumed this was common knowledge?

wasthataburp · 06/05/2021 20:38

@MissConductUS yes we don't know long term effects on adults or children.

MissConductUS · 06/05/2021 20:46

[quote wasthataburp]@MissConductUS Pfizer trials end 31st jan 2023, moderna 27th October 2022. I assumed this was common knowledge?
[/quote]
Yes, if you include two years of monitoring after approval. The monitoring phase is different from the trial phase.

Fact check: It is standard practice for vaccine safety monitoring to continue after approval

wasthataburp · 06/05/2021 20:49

@MissConductUS ah crossed wires there then! Personal preference but I will wait until all the trials are complete as per that article. I just don't want to compromise my kids or my own health when we are actually healthy individuals anyway and don't really require this particular vaccine

Slowdownandsee · 06/05/2021 21:51

I’d class myself as a very healthy individual and extremely fit but even with a vaccine (one dose) I have become more ill than I’ve been ever really, that’s the problem with this virus, you really don’t know until your body encounters it, my children have been very ill, worse symptoms than me so far but they are unvaccinated currently, I wish they had made it this next few weeks/months to a vaccine than have to produce antibodies via actual infection

worriedatthemoment · 06/05/2021 22:01

Mine are 16 and 17 so its their choice

TruelyWonder · 06/05/2021 23:34

Germany will also aim to offer vaccines to all children aged 12 and over by the end of August, once the European medical regulator approves a vaccine for younger people.

All 12- to 18-year-olds will be offered vaccines in the summer

Schmetterling1 · 07/05/2021 01:04

[quote Lupinhere37]@MissConductUS thanks so much for the article; that’s interesting. I agree with your comments as well, especially about those trivialising dangers of vaccine preventable disease.
What frustrates me most are the people who are waiting to see what the data shows. That relies on crazy, mad people sacrificing their children as lab rats apparently.
Well if absolutely everyone took the watch and wait approach, we’d never move on and kids will be mask wearing, self isolating and bombing out of school for a long time to come.
I don’t have the answers and I respect the right not to vaccinate. I just expect respect in return. People are very judgemental thoughHmm[/quote]
Why is 'mask wearing, self isolating and bombing out of school' the only alternative to vaccinating against a fairly harmless illness (for their age group) with a relatively untested vaccine? Why not vaccinate the vulnerable, protect the NHS (isn't that what it was about?) and then live our lives knowing that children get and spread viruses and it's a bit unpleasant but no more than that?

MissConductUS · 07/05/2021 13:51

@Schmetterling1

Why not vaccinate the vulnerable, protect the NHS (isn't that what it was about?) and then live our lives knowing that children get and spread viruses and it's a bit unpleasant but no more than that?

I've already posted on this exact question a few times up thread, but it's a long thread so I'll try to recap here. No doubt others will join and not RTFT.

First, it's often way worse than "a bit unpleasant". If you find one of @Lupinhere37's posts and click on "See all" you'll find her posts about what her daughter has been through. Children can have serious sequalae after the acute infection resolves.

While serious cases are quite rare, they are not unknown.

Children now account for 22 percent of new U.S. COVID cases. Why is that?

There's no paywall. Here's an excerpt:

Now, the part where that conversation about severity gets a little bit more complicated is yes, it is absolutely true that it's less severe in kids than it is in adults, and particularly older adults. But it's also not true to say that it's completely benign in kids. Fortunately, pediatric death is a fairly rare event. But when you look at the top 10 causes of death, on an annual basis, this year, we've had, depending on whose numbers you use, somewhere between 300 and 600 pediatric deaths from COVID-19 so far. That's probably an undercount. And that would fit it somewhere in the top 10, somewhere between like number 6 and number 9 in terms of causes of death for children.

So the point I'm making there is that yes, it's less severe, but it's still potentially a very severe disease. We've seen tens of thousands of hospitalizations already. So we do need a vaccine for children, not just to protect, not just to achieve herd immunity, but also to protect the children themselves.
*

So in the US we've had hundreds of children die and thousands have been hospitalized with covid. It's not much on a per capita basis, unless of course your kid is one of them. On a relative risk basis, I think it's really unlikely that the Pfizer or Moderna basis is going to kill hundreds of children or put thousands of them in the hospital.

This article speaks more directly to the reason for vaccinating teenagers and children.

When Will Kids Get COVID Vaccines? - Pharmaceutical companies are starting clinical trials in young children and adolescents, but they must balance speed and safety

Here's part of the article:

Given that most kids are at low risk for complications from COVID, the need for a pediatric vaccine for the disease may not seem pressing. But scientists say the pandemic may never be fully controlled until kids are inoculated. When we only vaccinate adults, we leave vulnerable “an enormous, immunologically naive population,” says James H. Conway, a pediatrician and associate director for health sciences at the Global Health Institute at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health. Without a pediatric vaccine, “the disease, even if our kids don't get super sick with it, is going to be there and continue to circulate routinely.”

Indeed, recent research suggests infections among kids are more common than public health authorities realized. In a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention paper published earlier this month, researchers tested blood samples routinely collected from people younger than 18 in Mississippi between May and September 2020. Although the state had only received reports of about 9,000 COVID infections in kids through September, analyses of coronavirus antibodies in the blood suggested that roughly 114,000 of them had actually had the pathogen—meaning the virus had infected nearly 13 times more children and adolescents than the state had recorded.
*

Finally, consider that the public health authorities in the US, Canada, and Germany have all indicated that they will make the pediatric vaccines available. The fact that their epidemiologists, infectious disease specialists, and pediatric medicine consultants collectively have decided that having these vaccines available for children is on balance a good thing is to me a strong indication that it's not a crazy idea.

kyph · 07/05/2021 15:24

@MissConductUS Very interesting post, thanks.
Covid in the top ten causes of death in children is quite a stark illustration.

MissConductUS · 07/05/2021 16:28

You're quite welcome, @kyph. Covid can be an absolute bastard and is not to be messed with, even if the odds are heavily in your favor.

We're so used to extremely low pediatric mortality rates these days that we tend to think of children as invulnerable. A hundred years ago a child had only about a 70% chance of living to age 5.

Schmetterling1 · 07/05/2021 19:25

Finally, consider that the public health authorities in the US, Canada, and Germany have all indicated that they will make the pediatric vaccines available. The fact that their epidemiologists, infectious disease specialists, and pediatric medicine consultants collectively have decided that having these vaccines available for children is on balance a good thing is to me a strong indication that it's not a crazy idea.

These experts are looking at what’s best on a societal level. I’m looking at what’s best for my child. And it certainly isn’t to get a vaccine that’s very new which we don’t know the long term effects of including the effects on a growing body, that is still in the trial stages, to protect them from something that is extremely unlikely to do them any harm.

UsedUpUsername · 07/05/2021 20:02

@Schmetterling1

Finally, consider that the public health authorities in the US, Canada, and Germany have all indicated that they will make the pediatric vaccines available. The fact that their epidemiologists, infectious disease specialists, and pediatric medicine consultants collectively have decided that having these vaccines available for children is on balance a good thing is to me a strong indication that it's not a crazy idea.

These experts are looking at what’s best on a societal level. I’m looking at what’s best for my child. And it certainly isn’t to get a vaccine that’s very new which we don’t know the long term effects of including the effects on a growing body, that is still in the trial stages, to protect them from something that is extremely unlikely to do them any harm.

Hopefully just the vulnerable children who are actually susceptible will get them. No mandates should be enacted for in/person schooling or sports etc etc
1983Roxy · 07/05/2021 20:58

None of my children will get the vaccine till at least 16

Lucidas · 07/05/2021 22:47

@Schmetterling1

Finally, consider that the public health authorities in the US, Canada, and Germany have all indicated that they will make the pediatric vaccines available. The fact that their epidemiologists, infectious disease specialists, and pediatric medicine consultants collectively have decided that having these vaccines available for children is on balance a good thing is to me a strong indication that it's not a crazy idea.

These experts are looking at what’s best on a societal level. I’m looking at what’s best for my child. And it certainly isn’t to get a vaccine that’s very new which we don’t know the long term effects of including the effects on a growing body, that is still in the trial stages, to protect them from something that is extremely unlikely to do them any harm.

How are you so confident about covid's lack of long term effects on a growing body?
Schmetterling1 · 07/05/2021 23:37

How are you so confident about covid's lack of long term effects on a growing body?

You don’t take one gamble to mitigate another.

Lucidas · 08/05/2021 00:22

@Schmetterling1

How are you so confident about covid's lack of long term effects on a growing body?

You don’t take one gamble to mitigate another.

But unlike your view on the risks of the vaccine, you don’t actually see covid for children as a gamble: it’s “extremely unlikely to do them any harm”, in your words. If you said upfront that both covid and the vaccine are a gamble for children, it might make more sense (but not much...considering that viruses are far more renowned for causing long term effects years down the line - think chicken pox and shingles, or HPV and cervical cancer).

But the main point is that this is just a classic way in which humans miscalculate risk: we worry more about the risks of taking action than we do about the risks of inaction. So it appears “less risky” to be passive and do nothing to stop your child getting covid, than it is to actively inject them with something. Even if that calculation is patently illogical. It’s how we’re wired.

Lucidas · 08/05/2021 00:31

This Forbes article is pretty good on what it calls omission bias: the tendency to perceive consequences as being worse when they result from action rather than inaction (i.e., omission).

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/coronavirusfrontlines/2021/04/27/how-your-brain-might-trick-you-into-thinking-covid-vaccines-are-riskier-than-they-really-are/amp/

Sparrowcrane · 08/05/2021 00:33

I'm shocked that there are parents out there who are going to get these jabs into their children! No way mine are getting it!

Sparrowcrane · 08/05/2021 00:43

[quote Lucidas]This Forbes article is pretty good on what it calls omission bias: the tendency to perceive consequences as being worse when they result from action rather than inaction (i.e., omission).

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/coronavirusfrontlines/2021/04/27/how-your-brain-might-trick-you-into-thinking-covid-vaccines-are-riskier-than-they-really-are/amp/[/quote]
Yeah these vaccines are pure goodness just are damn brains trick us into thinking that they are unsafe. Maybe some people can do a bit of research, like yellow card/vaers reporting, or check how trials were carried out and what their results are , or maybe realise that there is no long term data on these treatments. Statistically , cv is a threat to the elderly and people with serious underlying conditions, so what do healthy people need to vaccinate from?