Who thinks Australia and NZ have got it right ?

[marilenagrace]

What do you think ? Do you think that keeping everyone out of the country is the right approach long term to deal with covid ? Do you wish we did that here in the UK ?

They are setting up purpose-built quarantine facilities in Oz, so it really does not sound like they are planning to open the borders any time soon.

Bear in mind that once something like that has been built, this will encourage longer border closures due to the sunk costs involved: if you've gone and built something, you inevitably feel the urge to "make sure we get some use out of it" so you can avoid feeling like time and money have been wasted.

Oz has been a good place to be for the past 15 months or so but I don't think I'd like to be there for the next few years.

@user1477391263

They are setting up purpose-built quarantine facilities in Oz, so it really does not sound like they are planning to open the borders any time soon.

Bear in mind that once something like that has been built, this will encourage longer border closures due to the sunk costs involved: if you've gone and built something, you inevitably feel the urge to "make sure we get some use out of it" so you can avoid feeling like time and money have been wasted.

Oz has been a good place to be for the past 15 months or so but I don't think I'd like to be there for the next few years.

Why wouldn't you like to be there for the next few years?

The old adage "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" springs to mind.

Scotty is a bumbler, but even with the notable missteps (Ruby Princess, vaccine rollout shambles, etc), Australia is doing well despite and with the pandemic - with only 910 dead, and a rebounding economy.

Nobody in their right mind looks at the UK with its 128,000+ deaths, and stated plans to reduce restrictions as the third wave of the highly transmissible Delta VOC is still building, and thinks, I want to be there!

Because I want to be able to travel and not get cut off from family and the outside world for years. The vaccines work fine, so the Delta variant can go hang (shrug).

@user1477391263

Because I want to be able to travel and not get cut off from family and the outside world for years. The vaccines work fine, so the Delta variant can go hang (shrug).

Yes, the family issue is bad but for Australians who are born in the country, that's not always an issue ....and because the country has it's own food sources, plus many amazing places to holiday and travel, it's not so bad.

The majority of people here (I'm in Sydney) were happy previously as border shutting seemed a good short term solution but have just woken up to the fact that the Government had no long term plan- there is no structured approach at all - the vaccine rollout has been a complete farce - there is no coordination across the states at all over anything. I'm not sure what the current plans are re agriculuiral workers for example or foreign students as they are talking about cutting international travel even further

So the UK has vaccinated lots of people. But many of those will have had a vaccine with lower efficacy against the Delta strain. Which is running rampant completely uncontained in the UK.

Running rampant with the 23 deaths reported out of a population of 70 million yesterday.

The world has got to learn to live with Covid. It can't be contained. Vaccines only mitigate the impact, it won't be eradicated.

I genuinely admire the stance Aus and NZ took at the start of this but I also think the same couldn't have been achieved in Europe as the population density is different, mostly land borders etc. The reality is even with vaccines Covid will spread in Aus and NZ.

@Tealightsandd

Hahahaha! The UK is getting it right... I've heard it all now.

That definitely doesn't represent the views of the majority there. (Or anywhere).

And there's a major difference between eliminate/zero, versus suppress and contain. Small numbers of cases are easily and quickly contained, suppressed, managed, and treated.

I didn’t write the article teaslight. It’s in the Sydney Morning Herald. And lots of the comments from Aussies agree. You should read it, it might change your opinion! And yes right now, we are getting it right. You should be pleased

My friend emigrated to Sydney three years ago. Having been jealous that he's had a relatively normal 18 months compared to us, I'm surprised by how unhappy he is with the current situation. The lack of international travel is an issue as his parents have yet to see their first grandchild.

But his view is that the government hasn't promoted the vaccinations hard enough, the extensive coverage of side effects puts people off and there's no upside of then being able to travel once vaccinated. Plus the non AZ vaccines not being widely available until the end of the year. He said vaccination rates are something like 3% and, while their approach has largely worked until now, they are currently in a very exposed situation.

Small numbers of cases are easily and quickly contained, suppressed, managed, and treated.

Stopping quarantine-free travel for years, writing off international students and international tourism, and having snap lockdowns/closing state borders on a frequent basis is not quick or easy.

I think the Singaporeans probably got a good balance. They have done the "eliminate COVID within the country" thing with the idea of doing it for as long as it actually makes sense, have vaccinated fairly quickly and are now putting together a road map for living with the virus (including open borders) long-term.

I didn’t write the article teaslight. It’s in the Sydney Morning Herald. And lots of the comments from Aussies agree. You should read it, it might change your opinion! And yes right now, we are getting it right. You should be pleased
I've just read the thread and not sure of Teasliights agenda but she sounds like one of those people that was frothing with pleasure at thousands of deaths a day and now we have virtually none is determined to try and spread gloom or doom one way or another.

@Lucidas

I have no idea how the majority of Australians can be happy with an absolute fuckwit of a PM that is everything they claim to hate.

“We don’t need federally built quarantine, we just need better hotel quarantine” - Cases are still escaping hotel quarantine to this day and have done so in nearly every state so far.

“We don’t need to rush to get everyone vaccinated” - Currently have lower vaccination rates than most third world countries, which is further preventing herd immunity

“We don’t need to get the Pfizer vaccine due to ‘health concerns’” - no such concerns were ever made to the government and now that they're going with Pfizer they’re incredibly behind and have no stock of it.

Part of Morrison's popularity is that he's very religious. A frighteningly large number of Australians are religious at levels similar to US fundamentalists. The best schools are religious ones. It holds a lot of weight out there.

I dont think anyone in Australia can be happy right now surely. They had the ideal opportunity to get the population vaccinated and get out of this mess unscathed. Instead they are like sitting ducks. Few vaccinations, no natural immunity and no chance of leaving the country or seeing family from abroad for the foreseeable future. Sounds like its turning into a bit of a shitshow out there and I agree with pp that sadly this could be the start of their pandemic.

@XiCi

I dont think anyone in Australia can be happy right now surely. They had the ideal opportunity to get the population vaccinated and get out of this mess unscathed. Instead they are like sitting ducks. Few vaccinations, no natural immunity and no chance of leaving the country or seeing family from abroad for the foreseeable future. Sounds like its turning into a bit of a shitshow out there and I agree with pp that sadly this could be the start of their pandemic.

I'm perfectly happy thanks!

I don't think anyone in Australia can be happy right now surely

I know several Australians, and they seem happy enough.

I'd be horrified if I was an Australian right now. Totally backed into a corner with that strategy, and no long-term plan beyond remaining a giant prison camp.
But then I like travelling.

@MaxNormal

I'd be horrified if I was an Australian right now. Totally backed into a corner with that strategy, and no long-term plan beyond remaining a giant prison camp. But then I like travelling.

I like travelling but in all honesty, if I didn't have any family abroad, I'd really not feel the need. I have everything I need here....hot beaches, snow when I want it in the right season...varied landscapes, excellent food and work.

Australians can travel within their own country (most of the time) and they can also go to NZ. Australia is a big country. Calling it a "giant prison camp" is ridiculous.

I'm in Australia, and very happy, thanks for asking. As are most people I know!. I know everyone is quoting the 3% fully vaxxed thing, and that could be better, but something like 26% have had one vax so we will soon catch up, especially once we get more Pfizer in Q3. At the minute my state is in a four day lockdown, previous to that I hadn't worn a mask for months and was leading a normal life, sans foreign travel. The prison camp anaolgy couldn't be any more daft, this is a country the size of Europe. My state is bigger than Texas. All my friends and family in the Uk and Ireland would love to be here! I know because they've told me. My state has had nine deaths, in total, and we will open up when we are vaccinated. Of course they will want to open the borders again, but it would be insane to do that at the minute, especially with the Delta strain. I wouldn't go back to the UK right now anyway for all the tea in China anyway, luckily we are happy to holiday at home.

i understand the frustrations re the vaccine rollout but would it really/is it really morally ok if Australians - who had very limited experience of covid have access to the vaccines prior to countries with a more pressing need? We've had very limited spread due to other measures we were able to use to mitigate risk. Our plan was centred on AZ, now that's not appropriate so we have to wait for deliveries of others, which we are further down the line.
Its frustrating but I think this is the better alternative to mass illness or death and the need for emergency vaccines. Its just put us a good 6/ 12 months behind opening.

Weirdly I'm double vax pfizer cause I live in a less populous state (under 40 no health or job requirement) so not all states are struggling with the role out.

tho solidly agree - scotty in a knob and knows nothing....

But how will those in Australia feel about opening up and even with vaccines, having to accept thousands of deaths? You haven’t experienced that and it’s goinv to take someone strong in power to now convince people that will happen

Uk knows we could average 20,000 deaths even with 100% vaccinated fully

Australia has had so few deaths I just don’t see them ever coming to terms with those figures and as such never opening up like they did

www.smh.com.au/world/europe/the-truth-about-what-vaccines-are-achieving-from-a-country-getting-it-right-20210628-p5852n.html

This was on another forum and is quite interesting.

For the UK we made a hell of a lot of mistakes at the beginning but we have always I think gotten our vaccine programme spot on. And I think we are beginning to see that.

Australia and New Zealand made the right choice at the beginning and I think would have continued to had the Delta variant not raised it head.

Sorry just realised it has been posted.

@Tealightsandd do you not trust the Astrazeneca vaccine as being effective. I have seen a few posts from you about this and I think a lot of what you are thinking or saying comes from misunderstanding just how effective this is after two doses.

@user1477391263

Small numbers of cases are easily and quickly contained, suppressed, managed, and treated.

Stopping quarantine-free travel for years, writing off international students and international tourism, and having snap lockdowns/closing state borders on a frequent basis is not quick or easy.

I think the Singaporeans probably got a good balance. They have done the "eliminate COVID within the country" thing with the idea of doing it for as long as it actually makes sense, have vaccinated fairly quickly and are now putting together a road map for living with the virus (including open borders) long-term.

I agree. Australia is flailing now because there was no long term strategy in place. Even without the blood clot issues AZ was never the answer for Australia, it’s efficacy was not high enough to deliver true herd immunity. An issue now compounded by the more transmissible Delta variant. New Zealand (which sensibly ditched AZ before the rollout began) has calculated they will need 97% of the population to take their vaccines to attain herd immunity with the Pfizer now that Delta is the dominant international strain.

Zero Covid forever is just not feasible and eventually Australia has to face a reckoning…or remain a permanent hermit kingdom.

because you have a habit I think of misreading accidentally or deliberately articles and extrapolating from there.

So the article you had

www.itv.com/news/2021-06-29/covid-two-oxford-vaccines-produce-low-level-of-antibodies-against-delta-variant-study-shows

doesnt actually say it produces low level of antibodies what it actually says is

Two doses of the Oxford-AstraZeneca jab produces lower levels of antibodies against the Delta variant, first discovered in India, than against other strains.

Which is a very different thing to what you are reading and the study then says

“We can see clearly that the Delta variant poses a significant threat, but that two vaccine doses, and possibly an additional booster for at-risk groups, will be the best way to maximise protection, particularly against hospitalisations and deaths from Covid-19.

Meaning that actually this could all be solved by giving out a third dose - which shouldnt actually be that difficult to do!