Who thinks Australia and NZ have got it right ?

[marilenagrace]

What do you think ? Do you think that keeping everyone out of the country is the right approach long term to deal with covid ? Do you wish we did that here in the UK ?

This is interesting recent research; 1 in 10 with mild symptoms have long covid: directorsblog.nih.gov/tag/long-haulers/.

Australia has had a year to build more quarantine facilities with decent ventilation etc. Army barracks, mining camps or even caravan parks could be repurposed. We have the space. Because our government has been so hopeless they are now making these inhumane decisions to let our citizens die in India.

@TheKeatingFive

Australia is a few months behind the US, UK and Europe with vaccination due to supplies. By early next year we'll be in the same position as you guys are and able to open borders.

I’m not sure what Australia intend to do about the under 16s. They won’t be immunised in that time frame.

The under 16s are an extra phase on our vaccine schedule to be determined by the outcome of trials on those age groups

The under 16s are an extra phase on our vaccine schedule to be determined by the outcome of trials on those age groups

Do you open up before they are done, is the question I’m really asking.

I see a lot of commentary here about how Australia has temporarily blocked returnees from India. New Zealand did the same and yet no real mention of that. Did it make the news in the UK?
For the record as a kiwi in Australia I agree with both decision as temporary measures. Our health resources are not unlimited. We are still getting covid cases from Multiple locations that require medical intervention and management.

We have:
-150k dead
-Long covid
-NHS nearly broke down at the heights of it all, and it is still recovering from the big backlog of patients and some patients will be in a worst stage than before because they have been seen as quickly as they should have

• doctors are still refusing face to face app in many instances

-The economy is wrecked -Mental health of many people is down -children’s education has been disrupted The list goes on....

And you are still asking if NZ took the right decision?
I sat down in The middle of pandemic watching scenes from NZ with packed concerts and in stadiums watching games- something to be very envious of when all we could do in the UK was walk outdoors on our own and listen to the dreadful news of 1000 people dropping dead every day.

@TheKeatingFive

The under 16s are an extra phase on our vaccine schedule to be determined by the outcome of trials on those age groups

Do you open up before they are done, is the question I’m really asking.

I guess it will depend on results of trials, vaccination rate of everyone else and availability/timelines of vaccines. I know there is a lot of room for interpretation but the tide is turning here in terms of acceptance of risk etc. it's very hard to explain but there has been a distinct change in the language used and actions of the states and fed govt. Nothing that is worthy of a clickbait headline but if you are in it day to day it's quite obvious. Obviously this does not equate to a date set in stone for borders to open (which would be silly at this stage anyway) but is worth noting.

it's very hard to explain but there has been a distinct change in the language used and actions of the states and fed govt.

That’s interesting

@spottygymbag

I see a lot of commentary here about how Australia has temporarily blocked returnees from India. New Zealand did the same and yet no real mention of that. Did it make the news in the UK? For the record as a kiwi in Australia I agree with both decision as temporary measures. Our health resources are not unlimited. We are still getting covid cases from Multiple locations that require medical intervention and management.

I haven't seen anything on NZ. The news here (UK) seems more focused on Australia for some reason. I wonder why. Do more people in Australia than NZ have Indian family?

NZ suspended all flights from April 11-28 from India. It has been lifted but obviously can go back into place at any time. It was for similar reasons to Aus in that the number of positive cases was getting a bit out of hand and there are finite medical resources for covid in both places.
I think the main difference is that NZ set an end date (but that could be extended) whereas Aus has first said reduced number of flights from India then a ban which is noted as temporary but no specific end date.

Actually there is a date for Aus- May15th the situation will be re-assessed

@StartupRepair

Australia has had a year to build more quarantine facilities with decent ventilation etc. Army barracks, mining camps or even caravan parks could be repurposed. We have the space. Because our government has been so hopeless they are now making these inhumane decisions to let our citizens die in India.

All of this. They are a criminally incompetent, nasty and ineffectual government and I can't wait to see the back of them.

I didn't really see Australia's travel ban from India making news here until they started floating the idea of fines and/or prison sentences for citizens who do try to come home from there, and even then I mostly heard about it through outcry from other Australians. Temporarily suspending flights from India isn't particularly noteworthy in itself - in fact I think we've done that here too. That's probably the reason for the difference in our reporting on the situation in Australia vs NZ.

For the record as a kiwi in Australia I agree with both decision as temporary measures. Our health resources are not unlimited. We are still getting covid cases from Multiple locations that require medical intervention and management.

I also agree with the decisions spottygymbag. The people already living here and our health systems have to take precedence over people who have been overseas and now want to come home. I don't understand this insistence that the minority should be prioritised.

So. Here on the Isle of Man step one of opening the borders to UK was yesterday.

There has been a major shift here away from elimination with a strong guess age that we need to stop focusing on cases, in fact the media outlets were all reporting case numbers everyday whether they be returning travellers in quarantine, etc.

No one cares anymore. The population is well vaccinated and an outbreak early this year went through a couple of schools with no major issues (some people got sick, a couple died, thats life)

We are finally getting the borders open and still have no social distancing or masks, and currently no restrictions on gatherings etc.

Its a change of mindset. The vulnerable are vaccinated and the general population have a level of protection deemed sufficient to let the thing do what it wants to do with some attempts to catch cases at the border which will gradually be phased out over the next 6 to 8 weeks before full UK travel with no isolation.

@psychomath

I didn't really see Australia's travel ban from India making news here until they started floating the idea of fines and/or prison sentences for citizens who do try to come home from there, and even then I mostly heard about it through outcry from other Australians. Temporarily suspending flights from India isn't particularly noteworthy in itself - in fact I think we've done that here too. That's probably the reason for the difference in our reporting on the situation in Australia vs NZ.

That's interesting, I didn't realize that. I guess the consequences do look pretty intense, but it's to act as deterrent rather than revenue collecting. If the fines were low lots of people would just factor it into their travel costs. When the ban was brought in people were ignoring it and flying back indirectly through other routes so this was the next step. Aus is pretty notorious for hefty fines all round ($450 for being a few minutes over the 2hr parking allocation!).

Nothing that is worthy of a clickbait headline but if you are in it day to day it's quite obvious.

That’s interesting - talking to my parents and siblings this morning their view was quite the opposite, that if anything the mood music was becoming more hardline and accepting of long term border closures.

Unless I’ve misunderstood what you were saying?

It might be a long road for the 40% of Aussies who were born overseas or have a parent who was born overseas.

I think they have done well but failed for their residents who have been stuck abroad for months upon months unable to afford to fly business class to get back!

As for long covid and clinics - there are zero in Scotland the SG have refused to set them up instead stating that people should go through their GP and the usual referral system (which has huge backlogs)

Is the issue with supply or the way its being managed because I'm not seeing how its going to take the best part of 3 years to get around 20m people vaccinated!

Bordois Yes, the issue is supply. When making initial agreements the Aus gov essentially put all eggs in the one basket and went for the cheap deal, with the long term benefit of local manufacturing.

They ordered an initial minimum amount of Pfizer to get them through border security workers and other 1a’s while they were waiting for a large quantity of AZ to arrive to get the ball rolling while local production of AZ got into swing.

The first problem was the delay in the initial large order of AZ as the EU wouldn’t let it out and after negotiation we got some but not quantity ordered. That was still not too bad as we had local production starting up.

The next issue was perceived problems with AZ vaccine so it’s recommended it’s not used in the under 50’s. But we don’t have Pfizer to give to under 50’s. So we have many frontline healthcare workers, aged care workers etc who can’t be vaccinated. The other issue is we now have the over 50’s being quite vocal and voting with their feet against AZ but we don’t have Pfizer for them. It’s fair enough given we don’t have a COVID problem and they are saying they would rather stay shut and wait for something they are happy with than take something they don’t want and open.

So essentially the vaccine roll out/completion is now up in the air depending on when sufficient Pfizer stock can be obtained to fax pretty much the whole country. We made a bad deal initially and have had to go cap in hand to Pfizer who, while sympathetic and trying to get stock, have many countries in a queue and can’t exactly magic it out of thin air. That’s why the prediction keeps skipping down the road.

The hilarious part now is the plant that the Govnt did a deal with to manufacture AZ vaccine (made a guaranteed order to vax majority of population) has stuff banking up and expecting the agreement to be honoured and Govnt paying for something only a small minority will now accept.

NZ is in the best position as they initially ordered and secured Pfizer for their entire population so they should be able to open considerably ahead of Australia as long as they ensure people coming in have tested negative as they don’t have the health resources to deal with treating a significant number of incoming that are infected irrespective their own pop being vaccinated.

It might be a long road for the 40% of Aussies who were born overseas or have a parent who was born overseas.

That’s not meaningful though. Many who were born overseas would have arrived as part of a family unit with direct family and many would have entire extended families come over also. That captures people right through to old age who were born overseas. Their parents would be long gone, their direct family all here and even if siblings etc overseas many would be too elderly to travel anyway so it’s not bothering them. Same goes for those with a parent born overseas, the parent may have well come here before having children, their parents gone or they themselves are elderly.

So, while 40% may have either been born overseas themselves or had a parent born overseas, there is no way that anywhere close to 40% would be in the position of wanting/needing to go outside of Australia for the purpose of family ties. If you consider that number captures everyone in the population from birth to death and we have a stacked aging population I’d guess you would struggle to hit 20% where this is relevant. That’s a guess but irrespective it’s very much a minority.

@JassyRadlett

Nothing that is worthy of a clickbait headline but if you are in it day to day it's quite obvious.

That’s interesting - talking to my parents and siblings this morning their view was quite the opposite, that if anything the mood music was becoming more hardline and accepting of long term border closures.

Unless I’ve misunderstood what you were saying?

Yes, lost in translation I think. Due to the rollout issues noted upthred by pp's, our borders will probably be closed longer. However the overall positioning is still talking about acceptance. This can even be seen in the recent responses to new community cases in both wa and qld. So it's yes to both, borders not opening for a while yet, and rhetoric moving towards acceptance. One does not preclude the other.

Hopping thanks for the explanation.

I'm assuming though that the timeframe given is a projection based on the current rollout speed? Surely once a supply is secured rollout will be a lot quicker!

However the overall positioning is still talking about acceptance. This can even be seen in the recent responses to new community cases in both wa and qld.
So it's yes to both, borders not opening for a while yet, and rhetoric moving towards acceptance. One does not preclude the other.

Ah, then no, I didn’t misunderstand you. My family (Qld and Vic) are experiencing the rhetoric and mood music very differently. They feel like it’s shifting in the opposite direction to how you’re reading it.