Who thinks Australia and NZ have got it right ?

[marilenagrace]

What do you think ? Do you think that keeping everyone out of the country is the right approach long term to deal with covid ? Do you wish we did that here in the UK ?

People can travel to Belfast and then just drive down to the ROI with no restrictions

Policing the border is highly sensitive politically. It’s also totally impractical when people live straddled across it, cross it multiple times a day, often live/study/work on opposite sides. Also there are many backroads..

What ya gonna do?

I also find it ridiculous that you have to quarantine going into ROI from the UK and do pre travel tests yet no tests or quarantine is required travelling from the UK to NI, only self isolation for 10 days, yet you are also allowed to go out and shop for essentials. People can travel to Belfast and then just drive down to the ROI with no restrictions

Just a gentle reminder that NI is part of the UK .

There have been restrictions on travel in/out of NI for anything but essential purposes hasn’t there, alongside the stay at home order? Along with the self-isolation guidance which is the same as for arrivals from most countries so not sure why it would be stricter?

Sensitivity to the border between NI and ROI ie. keeping it open at all costs is way way more important than a hypothetical tiny gain of possibly reducing cases by closing the border for a week or two and actually upsetting loads of people. I think NI and ROI have mostly roughly had the same case infection anyway more or less. Think ROI was higher then NI was now ROI is again but cases reducing throughout the island. I think NI has the highest vaccination rates in the whole of U.K. and ROI.

@TheKeatingFive @JassyRadlett @sashagabadon I understand all that. My point is that I don’t understand why the ROI has the rule where people have to have pre travel tests and quarantine when they know that it’s easy for people to just travel via Belfast.

The last thing I want is a hard boarder, the “troubles” where the reason my family left Ireland so I really don’t want to see them back.

^it’s easy for people to just travel via Belfast’

Is it really easy though? Given all but essential travel between countries in the CTA is currently off (and recognising the needs of those who work/are educated/having caring responsibilities across the border - I thought the ‘more than 24 hours was a really sensible way of balancing that.)

@MedSchoolRat

Trish Greenhalgh has repeatedly argues that the Precautionary Principle not rigorous evidence evaluation should be used to decide what to do about the pandemic. She is obsessed with masks and has made a fool of herself in her blind enthusiasm.

Some wag on Twitter just generated this graphic.

Makes me laugh when anyone says "Follow the Science!" to decide what to do about covid. The people saying that loudest do not want science. They want Precaution as Only priority.

The point you appear to have failed to grasp is that the precautionary principle and science are not mutually exclusive. It's just a question of where the burden of proof lies.

The UK government took the line early on that handwashing was fundamental, despite there being zero proof of covid transmitting in this way. Yet when it came to masks, proof was demanded.

Side note here - it's been widely known for a long time that the large droplet route (coughs/sneezes) is far less significant than once believed with aerosols suspected to be more important for influenza. The evidence that other respiratory infections spread via surfaces is also rather weak, so it's not like they were simply applying known science to a new (similar) virus.

The whole situation should be a combination of science and risk management. If its scientifically plausible for something to reduce risk then you do it until evidence emerges that it doesn't reduce risk. If you end up in a situation where you have two options and BOTH carry risk, then you don't randomly pick one and demand proof for the other... you select the one that carries the lower risk and continuously monitor the evidence as it emerges, ready to switch to the other option if necessary.

Incidentally, regarding mask usage - haven't read the paper you're referring to and it doesn't look like a good one. There have been a number of other studies showing a benefit.

jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536
www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

My point is that I don’t understand why the ROI has the rule where people have to have pre travel tests and quarantine when they know that it’s easy for people to just travel via Belfast

Optics really. But in reality, self administered quarantine isn’t being enforced strongly in ROI either.

Regarding washing hands, in the UK norovirus infections dropped to near extinction levels this winter and rotavirus infections dropped to about half normal levels. Might be an idea to keep up the hand washing.

Regarding washing hands, in the UK norovirus infections dropped to near extinction levels this winter and rotavirus infections dropped to about half normal levels. Might be an idea to keep up the hand washing.

I am very keen for this to keep happening, especially in schools! Can’t quite get over a year with not a single fever from my kids, even allowing for the time off school/nursery.

Plus would be great to see presenteeism seriously addressed . Have seen suggestions of the govt planning a big push on this in the autumn to try to shift the balance from ‘heroic to drag yourself in when you’re ill’ to ‘why the fuck are you here spreading your hideous germs around’. Probably using gentler language though.

Incidentally, regarding mask usage - haven't read the paper you're referring to and it doesn't look like a good one. There have been a number of other studies showing a benefit.

jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536
www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

^^ Those articles are NOT studies. They are opinion pieces. They just about scrape onto bottom tier in the Hierarchy of Evidence.

I am resigned to fact that Evidence is out of fashion. I sure hope it doesn't stay out of fashion.

I think there is a massive difference between asking everyone to do something they should already be doing anyway ( washing hands) and mandatory mask wearing Of course we need to see the evidence and counter evidence or at least be happy someone in government has. To make everyone actively wear something on their face ( or anywhere in their body) and make it a legal requirement is a massive infringement of rights. Is there another legal precedent to doing this in the U.K.? Maybe seatbelts? But even then we don’t wear them on our faces. I honestly can’t think of another example? School uniform maybe but even then not a legal requirement and you can opt out by going to a non uniform school or home schooling if you really object. Yes I know only masks etc but it’s the principle of a legal requirement to wear one. Slippery slope and all that!
Not to mention the huge demand there would have been back in April 2020 as very few of the population would routinely have masks in their homes and the low supply was needed for care homes/ nhs.

To make everyone actively wear something on their face ( or anywhere in their body) and make it a legal requirement is a massive infringement of rights.

That’s really a bit overblown. Which rights? Is it an infringement of rights to ask people to wear clothes that cover their genitals? Women to have their breasts covered in public? Laws that say you must wear closed shoes in some work environments for safety?

We already have laws that require some body parts to be covered in some circumstances for nothing like the potential public good. This is one where the harm from mask wearing is very low, the potential benefit even if not fully evidences could be significant, and so on a precautionary basis when we are asking people to make much more life-changing adjustments it’s a reasonable one to me.

for nothing like the potential public good
You say that, but I really really don't want people wandering round town with all their dangly bits out on display. I'm fine with masks, but if there's a fabric crisis then I'll vote for putting everyone in pants first.

You say that, but I really really don't want people wandering round town with all their dangly bits out on display. I'm fine with masks, but if there's a fabric crisis then I'll vote for putting everyone in pants first.

I mean, me too! It would get me to stay at home for sure....

I’m going to start using this as a response to ‘masks are an infringement of my rights!’ people though. Try going out without pants or anything on your lower half. Then tell us how requiring masks indoors is an unprecedented attack on our right not to have to cover parts of our bodies with fabric.’

Not everyone understands a sarcastic approach. If I get flashed, I'm blaming you @JassyRadlett.

"Before vaccination we had barely any immunity to covid"

Doesn't it depend where? What's the estimate for London.

In Brussels, a study of around 1k people found 16% antibodies so if that's the case for the whole population of Brussels, it's not low, is it? Belgium has been no.1 country at one time, but so has the UK so why would it be so much lower.

Having said that, the NZ and Australian approach are obviously the best for countries that can really protect their borders.

Fair. Totally fair.

@TheKeatingFive

People can travel to Belfast and then just drive down to the ROI with no restrictions

Policing the border is highly sensitive politically. It’s also totally impractical when people live straddled across it, cross it multiple times a day, often live/study/work on opposite sides. Also there are many backroads..

What ya gonna do?

Same situation in the Schengen area of Europe. It's just not practical to police all the borders. When you have land borders without customs posts or anything, it's impossible. Even if they checked all the main roads, people can drive on small roads or even walk over.

@JassyRadlett

Regarding washing hands, in the UK norovirus infections dropped to near extinction levels this winter and rotavirus infections dropped to about half normal levels. Might be an idea to keep up the hand washing.

I am very keen for this to keep happening, especially in schools! Can’t quite get over a year with not a single fever from my kids, even allowing for the time off school/nursery.

The norovirus could just be lack of contact. Nobody going to restaurants or other people's houses for food, or not many people at least.

A few points, in no particular order:

1. I actually don't mind masks that much, but a lot of people hate wearing them and find them really uncomfortable. Requiring them on public transport, in public spaces and in shops will drive large numbers of people out of those places and into private cars, into their own homes and into online shopping and basically doing everything online.

Maybe it's worth putting up with this when we are in the middle of a pandemic.

But do we really want society to be like this long-term? I don't.

Long-term, once we are past the actual pandemic phase, I want busy bustling city centers with lots of people out and about in person getting fresh air, seeing human faces, using local shops and small businesses, and getting out and and I want as many people using public transport as possible for environmental reasons. There are already genuine concerns about the financial viability of public transport systems due to increased levels of WFH. Pushing significant numbers of people into cars because they hate masks could be the last straw. Same goes for shopping in-person, and occupying public spaces, and meeting people face to face.

I am really really not anti-maskI was wearing one before most of the people on here werebut it should be possible to be able to recognize that masks are useful tools for pandemics while also being honest about their potential downsides, and being alive to the risks of mandatory mask-wearing drip-feeding on and on and becoming a creepy new-normal.

1. Hygiene and hand-washing: Okay, I get that nobody wants to be the grubby person who says out loud "There is such a thing as being too clean," but... there really is such a thing as being too clean, everyone.

This article here from NYT should give us pause. All through this pandemic I've been quietly eye-rolling the people chirruping merrily about how "Me and my kids haven't had a single bug all year! Isn't it marvellous? Let's do this always!!" No, let's not. Seriously. It isn't sensible or normal to bubble ourselves or our kids from germs to such an extreme extent, and I'd have thought that anyone with common sense would have been able to see this.
www.nytimes.com/2021/04/23/opinion/covid-germs-health.html

1. Okay, it looks like the Aus-NZ travel bubble lasted an entire... four days? Not knocking the Aus/NZ approach (it has mostly worked out very well for these countries), but I think we need to stop deluding ourselves that travel bubbles are going to work. International travel will require high vaccination levels.

www.google.co.jp/search?q=new+zealand+pauses+travel+bubble+after+outbreak&biw=1506&bih=690&sxsrf=ALeKk01LkokqbNeTY8zN1BsNi9U-QS26qA%3A1619263854626&ei=bgGEYIjoJcH_wAPMvLLgDA&oq=new+zealand+pauses+travel+bubble+after+outbreak&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BQgAEMsBOgIIADoECAAQHjoGCAAQCBAeOgUIIRCgAToECCEQFToECCEQClDNxgFY2PcBYMj5AWgDcAB4AIABngGIAYUakgEEMzcuMZgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXrAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwiI1-j245bwAhXBP3AKHUyeDMwQ4dUDCA4&uact=5

Re. Wearing clothes, yes I suppose that is a legal requirement but that’s because of indecency laws. There used to be a man that regularly walked around naked, can’t remember his name now, he went to gaol, got out, walked naked, got arrested, went to gaol, got out, walked naked etc etc. Obviously I don’t want to see his knackers either but I got his wider point. I also wear masks at tube at work at the shops but I don’t like the legal requirement to have to do so and will stop as soon as I am allowed.

This article here from NYT should give us pause. All through this pandemic I've been quietly eye-rolling the people chirruping merrily about how "Me and my kids haven't had a single bug all year! Isn't it marvellous? Let's do this always!!" No, let's not. Seriously. It isn't sensible or normal to bubble ourselves or our kids from germs to such an extreme extent, and I'd have thought that anyone with common sense would have been able to see this.

Yeah, I’m one of the ‘let the babies eat a bit of dirt’ crowd usually but I’m also over the fucking moon that I haven’t had to administer a Covid test to my kids because kids haven’t literally been passing their shit around at school.

I think there’s probably a happy medium between ‘a healthy level of germs’ and ‘oh god not fucking worms again why.’ And I’m happy that I’m partly striking it by the fact that my kids literally rolled in mud every day all fucking winter.

The norovirus could just be lack of contact. Nobody going to restaurants or other people's houses for food, or not many people at least

Aye, though kids haven’t been doing distancing within their bubbles and youngest was back at nursery from June with only minimal breaks between now and Christmas. But you’re right that distancing between bubbles which also cuts transmission.

" All through this pandemic I've been quietly eye-rolling the people chirruping merrily about how "Me and my kids haven't had a single bug all year! Isn't it marvellous? Let's do this always!!" No, let's not. Seriously."

I haven't read the article, but I already know that I don't want to live my life not getting colds at all because I need to build up some immunity to them.
As soon as the pandemic is over I will stop with the hand sanitiser and the mask.